SEN 1470

Table of Contents - SEN 1470

  1. SEN Submissions
  2. California in February
  3. Team Selection Details 1 - Regional
  4. Team Selection Details 2 - Suitable site for select contests
  5. More selection thoughts
  6. Reminder - Chuck's Poll
  7. Sites used for the America;s Cup
  8. Editor/Moderator Comments

SEN Submissions

A reminder that if you want to submit some for SEN - just reply to the address you got this from This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. or if you are on the web site you can submit a enquiry online.

If it is a longish document and you want to prepare it in a word processor such as MS word you can do this. Do not overly embellish the document as it may not display as intended.

California in February

This is an enquiry e-mail via from:
As I understand, in 2011, in addition to MaxMen, Isacson Winter Classic will also be in FAI World Cup status. Is there any news for the dates, organization and the status of the PAN American Cup 2011 (will it be an open international or World Cup)?
Best regards,
My understanding is that
starting 12 February at Lost Hills, CA
the  Isaacson will host the Anselmo Zeri Memorial Dutch World Cup contest
the Pan American will be an open International during the week.
The Maxmen will be as usual a USA World Cup contest on the following  Presidents day weekend

later in the year there will be 2 World Cup contests in Canada

In during a one week span in October at Lost Hills there will be :
The California Invitational aka Livotto  on Columbus day
During the week the Bissonette Memorial which includes a Danish World Cup Contest
Then in the weekend the Sierra Cup  usual a USA World Cup contest

Team Selection - Details - 1

Team Selection Thoughts
Several of the recent selection proposals have mentioned flying sites from all over America.  The following comment is similar to part of the proposal I submitted to the TSC for a multi-contest selection proceess.
Several years ago I received an email that really made me think, the email was a reply to someone's suggestion to use the America's Cup program to select the USA team.  In the email three questions were asked.
1. Why would you have a team selection contest at a field that can only fly 120 second maxes?    And if there is much wind or a poor direction, 90 second maxes?
2. Why would you have a team selection contest at a contest where the average entry  is three, maybe four entrants per event?
3.  Why would you have a team selection contest at a field where only the locals have chase bikes and you cannot use a car to retrieve? 
The individual went on to say that like it or not, the age of the FAI competitors is getting up there, and in reality, the only two flying sites that people are willing to travel to are Muncie, (Muncie for the Nats, rent a golf cart for a day for $25 for retrieval) and to Lost Hills (because with the storage sheds most competitors have motorcycles, awnings, all types of equipment, etc.).   RETRIEVAL IS REQUIRED!!!.
These three questions,  made me rethink my proposal , also made me go back and read the America's Cup purpose statement, which states that the purpose of the America's Cup Competition is "to foster the develoment of flyers and models", it does not say anything about selecting the best fliers (for the USA National Team), and that is why small contests are acceptable for their purpose.......... it keeps everyone involved and flying, it is a develpmental tool.  

One of the recent proposals called for area contests from all over the country, with smallish numbers of entries in each class being sufficient to accrue points towards making the team.  Look as the locations mentioned, look at the normal number of entries in each class at these contests.  There are reasons for the small number of entries at these flying sites.
There have been several mentions of Denver as a team selection contest site.  the Denver field is at 6,200 foot altitude. Very few power fliers that have flown at Denver ever go back.  F1C sucks at 6,200 foot altitude. Again look at the entries...... the mostly non-existent F1C entries.  Everyone who has suggested Denver for a finals contest site, is not, repeat, not a F1C flier.  In 2006 I went up to the Denver field with Chuck Etherinton to fly F1C, I should say I tried to fly F1C, Chuck was a great host, but it was a miserable experience.  Forget Denver for a F1C finals site.
Sorry Chuck, but I want Denver out of the equation for F1C.
Many flying sites are now inadequate for flying the high performance F1 models we now have.  In 2008 I went back to Waegell field in Sacramento California for an America's cup contest.  We had held the Sierra Cup there from 1977 through 2004, I remembered it as a great field.  But current model performance had me off the field easily.  One of the F1A fliers had RDT on his model and with early DT's kept his model on the field. At Seguin only two minute maxes are flown, if it is windy, only 90 second maxes.
Only Lost Hills and Muncie have contests with large numbers of entries.  And these large contests draw the largest number of program participants, year in and year out.  Most competitors have competed for a large number of years, they want to compete againt the strong competition that you have at a large contest.
The last thing we need is a diluted team selection program!!!

Roger Simpson

Team Selection - Details - 2

Regionals-finals proposal clarifications

A combined regionals contest (1/5) dovetailed into double 7-round Finals (2/2), were the two best scores matter, is the only workable regional selection process. Why?

First, one does not have to fly in any regionals, just do well ant each of the two 7-round contests at the Finals and your on the team!

Second, the five regional contests are distributed across the States over two years, selected by the TSC. Three are fixed: Loss Hills, Muncie and Wawayanda; the others could be in Lost Hills (twice), Vegas, Texas or Colorado. Adding the constraint that scores from up to three declared regional contests matter, one would be a local-contest, the second a drivable-contest and the third a fly-to-contest, for most fliers. Hopefully the out-of-state contests would be those who most of us attend (Lost Hills and Muncie).

Third, all unresolved ties will be settled at the Finals, based on relative positions. For example, id fliers A, B and C are tied in Texas, if A > C > B at the Finals, then A would be first, C second and B third at the Texas regional. Ties are inevitable, as regionals will be restricted to weekends and some fields, such as Muncie and Wawayanda, can’t, hold flyoffs exceeding five minute.

This means that those fly to a regional contest would have to arrive on Friday to do some practicing and probably fly home early Monday, costing two work days. Another implication is that a regional contest at Muncie could not overlap the Nationals (which is a zoo). It would have to be held on the weekend preceding the Nats or on an entirely different weekend.

Forth, doing well at a regional improves one chances of making the team. A win (rank 1) at a regional, will net a team position if the flier also wins one of the 7-round Finals contests. But this honor is shared with five other fliers.

The other regional contest proposals suffer form poor geographical distribution (4 in Lost Hills, two at Muncie), require attending many contests (at least five) and are not dovetailed into the Finals, which is critical to resolving ties. (Note that the Finals are also required by the ‘blue book’.)


Editor clarification - so my understanding is that a person may take part in as many regional contests as they wish? So in my case in increase my likelihood in getting on the team as a semi-geezer professional sportsman I would need to take part in all those regional contests  to make sure to get one set of first place points for myself and exclude others such as you  from doing same at sub 3 min max field like Waywanda.  Actually, I have not see the history of the contests at Waywanda but I did notice a number if 150 sec max rounds at Waywanda earlier in the year - but much better than at Pensacola, for example.  Being a hard-core FAI  flyer, sorry sportsman from the left hand side of the S*****k line it is my duty to make comments like that just to keep you on your toes and explain why people vote for the status quo.

More Selection thoughts

There is usual argument against multiple event Selections that the
quality of timekeeping may be low. I asked myself and talked to a few
others. How many times in the last 10-15 years their result at MaxMen
was not fair? I mean not when the flier makes a mistake or the model
fails. Unfair is when for the reasons out of your control you have the
result which you do not deserve. The answer was - none or almost none.
I asked the same guys the same question about the Finals. You know the
answer. Ask yourself these questions.

I am not saying that the timekeeping at the Finals is bad; I say that
the quality of organization and timekeeping at the events like Nats,
Sierra, MaxMen or Eloy is adequate and needs little or no improvement.
Mistakes do happen, but the cost of single mistake is greatly reduced
if it is one out of six events.

Alex Andriukov

Reminder - Chuck's Poll

Here is E-mail address and questions that Chuck wanted clarified from the Team Selection Participants - he wants is now so if you want to respond to him do it right away  - Hiss e-mail address is in the next paragraph
This is a bit unusual, but for my own edification I would like to put a sharper point on the question by taking a straw poll.  Program participants, please pick A, B, C, D, E or F from the below list of questions and email me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..  For the moment don't focus on the logistics, just the concept.  Please don't spend time providing justification for your choices, I just need the letters of your 1st and 2nd picks.  Three days from this post should be enough time to collect the data.  Thanks. 
A)  Are you in favor of a single site, single event 14-round Final in which those who have maxed out 14-rounds (or as many rounds as have been flown) advance to the flyoffs (current format)?
B)  Are you in favor of a single site, single event 14-round Final in which each contestant is given a "mulligan" (dropped max) reducing the "sudden death" element of flying 14-rounds?
C)  Are you in favor of a single site, single event 14-round Final in which each 7-rounds are counted as a separate contest?
D)  Are you in favor of a single site, single event 7-round Final (similar to the World Championships format)?
E)  Are you in favor of a multiple contest format perhaps held in different parts of the country?
F)  Are you in favor of a multiple contest format combined with a single event finals?

The sites used for the America's Cup

To help people remember these are the sites used for the Americas Cup. To run a "traditional" finals at a site what is needed besides the site is an adequate organization to run the event.

Eloy, AZ - large - very hot in the summer
Lost Hills, CA - large - hot in the summer
Seguin, TX
Sacramento, CA -small
Muncie,IN - medium
Wawayanda, NY
Pensacola,AL -small
Denver,CO - large at altitude affects F1C and some people
Borden, Ont - large, not in the USA, trees
Genesco, NY 
Tangent, OR - varies - medium
El Dorado Dry Lake,NV - large - hot and windy in the summer
Palm Bay, FL - medium
Ingleside, MD - small

I put my personal rating  and did not include sites I have not flown at, I did put those on my bucket list.

Editor's/Moderator's Note

Interesting comment from Alex where effectively he says that  by taking the results of several events it will more than compensate for getting penalized by bad timing at one event.

 What has not been addressed is the one advantage of the current finals system is that the timer keepers are assigned by the organizer and there is no question of favouritism or giving the contestant a max when they should not. I do not believe that this can be addressed by no permitting wives or family members to time as regular flying buddies are just as suspect. What might work is requiring that the sportsman use at least 3 different timers in the selection event.?

Roger Morrell