SEN 778- Feb 7 2003
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News and Reports 2003
SCAT Electronic News 7 February 2003 issue 778
Table of Contents
=================
Too Many Binos - Brun
Keith Hoover RIP.... - Lorbiecki
Re: AstroStar - Thorkildsen and Perkins
Re: Fw: F1P engines - Thorkidsen and Secor
Just a comment on Biggles Jr. program feature. - Jahnke
Question on timer operation with big engines - Texas Timer
Sigurd Seydel ?
Shanghai Selig
The Traveling Model Box - Norval
Chase Bike and Storage at Lost Hills - Poti and Simpson
F1P FINI - Barker
Excerpt from Vol Libre - Segrave
Re: SEN Junior Program - Gregorie
Heartland Juniors - H
Too Many Binos
==============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
too many pairs of binocular!
need to sell one
20x60 PCF V made by PENTAX purchase 10 2001
Paid $ 248.00,for sale at $180.00 or bo
PIERRE
1 818 989 4970
will bring them to the field
Keith Hoover RIP....
=====================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I was told just recently of the untimely death of Kieth Hoover. Keith
was a long time flyer from the Chicago area. He was best known for his
book on FAI Power published in 1992. He also was a proponent of the VHTL
model. He produced many designs and studies of these models throughout
his life. Keith, though he was never very successful, loved FAI and the
technology that it brought. He most recently was trying to gather more
information to publish a more up to date book. I am sorry to see him go.
Rest in Peace.....
Re: AstroStar
=============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Hi Daryl,
Thanks for the input. I will copy some of the fellas
that were wondered how it would handle the powerof a
cyclon. With the better construction and the union
jack it would have no problems with the modern engines
like the cyclon.
The cg I recommend is 77 to 78% dry (no fuel). The
plans in model Aviation on the 1/2A version 317 sq in
showed 74% but at 77 to 78% it works a lot better.
Thermals,
Terry
--- Daryl Perkins wrote:
> Hi Terry,
>
> I put a Galbreath MP-Jet .061 on my 1/2-A version
> with a 6-2 APC on FAI fuel 26,800. The union-jack
> ribs were left out for less weight more speed,
> covered with a single layer of tissue, locked down,
> I did change the CG from the plans a bit to get a
> steeper climb, but the airframe was plenty strong.
>
> I feel that the AstroStar is the best choice for
>
this new event.
>
> See you on the field,
>
> dp
>
Re: Fw: F1P engines
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
It should handle the power of a cyclon .061 for sure!
I think they have even put cyclon .049's on the 317
astrostars so the Astrostar 404 was designed with much
better structure more like the 600 Astrostar. The
only change you will need to make is to move the wing
forward since Craig Cusick was drawing it with the
wing further back since we figgured most of them would
get an AME .061 which is close to the weight of a TD.
Just balance it completely finished with no fuel at 77
to 78 % for the cg by locating the pylon last and you
will be just fine.
If I was to build a new one for an cyclon .049 I would
probably go for about 350 to 360 sq inches with the
same type of structure as the 600 so you should have
no problems with a Cyclon .061 in a 404.
Thermals,
Terry
--- Randy Secor
wrote:
> Terry
> Do you think the 404 can handle a cyclon .061?
> Locked down.........
> Randy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Terry Thorkildsen"
> To: "Randy Secor"
> Cc: "Tony Robertson"
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 5:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: F1P engines
>
>
> > Hi Randy,
> >
> > I do not know much about the MP jet motors but I
> know
> > the AME's can be made to run well. Mike thompson
> runs
> > one in his 1/2A and I think the only thing he did
> was
> > to reduce the size of the intake so they weren't
> so
> > critical on the needle.
> >
> > I have one myself but have yet to run it.
> >
> > The person that really knows them well is tony
> > Robertson who flys F1J all the time. He knows how
> to
> > rework those and the Big Migs and makes them run
> > really well as a result. He will probably be at
> the
> > max man contest.
> >
> > You could call Mike Thompson at 805 522-8736 at
> home.
> > He lives in simi valley.
> >
> > I copied Tony Robertson on this email so you can
> pick
> > off his email and he can probably tell you the
> best
> > way to make them run consistent or get the most
> out of
> > them.
> >
> > Thermals,
> >
> > Terry
> > --- Randy Secor
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Terry,
> > >
> > > I would like to get your take on engines for the
> 404
> > > Astro Star, Cody will
> > > be building one for F1P.
> > > Do you have any experence with AME Or MP Jets?
> > > Randy
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Randy Secor"
> > >
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:46 AM
> > > Subject: Re: F1P engines
> > >
> > >
> > > > Any objection to putting a Cyclon on this
> model?
> > > Would Doug be willing to
> > > > sell .061 at a reduced cost since it's for a
> F1P
> > > Jr.
> > > > I know this design will take the power, even
> > > locked down. Some of the AE
> > > or
> > > > MP Jets need considerable work to make them
> run.
> > > The cyclon is ready to
> > > run
> > > > from Doug, also I've noticed that the cylcon
> > > running on pressure requires
> > > > little or no needling, some of the other
> engines
> > > can be very fussy on the
> > > > needle, which is dangerious for a Jr. I can
> tell
> > > you from experence with
> > > > beginners give them an engine that will fire
> and
> > > go! Before investing in
> > > the
> > > > AE or MP Jets I would talk to Doug G.
> > > >
> > > > Randy
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From:
> > > > To: ""Randy Secor""
> > >
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:08 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: F1P Forms
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Randy and Tyler,
> > > > >
> > > > > You are the first receiptant of the Astro
> Star
> > > 404 kit. We hope to have
> > > > the plans at the Max Men. We are in the
> process of
> > > getting kits together
> > > > and getting lazer cut ribs. We still plan to
> have
> > > ready in April 2003.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are also looking into expanding the
> incentive
> > > by giving a .061 engine
> > > > (AE or MP Jet type) to those Jrs that
> successfully
> > > build the Astro Star.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > See you at the max men
> > > > >
> > > > > JIM
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
Just a comment on Biggles Jr. program feature.
===============================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
I respectfully think that event rules have no affect whatever on those
32,000,000 juniors out there. Though I have an opinion about which events
are most attractive to youngsters and which are not, I think its is
irrelevant data given the numbers quoted. Even a kid with above average
knowledge of aviation would think a P-30 is an obscure WWII fighter. Rule
changes are for the sake of those who already fly.
We have a P.R. problem of immense proportion - noone knows we exist! Could
we even say that 100,000 of those 32,000,000 understand the distinction
between R/C, F/F and C/L? Solve this problems and every event will be over
run with young people. (I sense some of you getting uncomfortable with that
thought).
Looking at the forest...
Ross
Question on timer operation with big engines
===========================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I am looking for some feedback on my timers when used with big engines like the
K&B 6.5. I have never had a report of a problem, but I would like to
ask the question. I would expect the speed may shift a bit compared to sitting
in you hand on the ground, but what I would like to know is does the
mechanism function correctly and stay together? I see no reason it would not. T
his applies only to timers made by me, not the early models over ten
years ago which did have a problem with screws coming out.
Please reply directly to me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Thanks,
Hank
--
Visit TEXAS TIMERS on the web
http://www.TexasTimers.com
Sigurd Seydel ?
===============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Can you help me to find Sigurd Seydel's e-mai address?
THX!!
Gabor
Shanghai Selig
===============
In a recent chat with John Clapp of FAI model supplu about important
things .. he mentioned that he had a few Chinese made Selig
style timer as used by the Chinese power team. Contact
John for details.
The Traveling Model Box
=======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
On a recent airplane trip to Phoenix I traveled with Walt and Judy Ghio. Im
still amazed how Walt carries on his model box in the cabin. Ive pretty much
given in and pack my box for the baggage monkeys to toss around. Walt does wrap
his model box with a cardboard sleeve. I believe its all in the presentation.
I had to take out my Walston TX and show them to the Federal Inspectors at
their request. A short explaination and all was well. My box does get some wear
and tear but havent yet (knock on wood) had any damage. I use thick nylon
straps to wrap around the box and then zip tie them once latched.
Chase Bike and Storage at Lost Hills
====================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Tired of walking or sharing a motorcycle at the Lost Hills flying site? A
rare opportunity exists to procure a bike as well as long term storage.
Roger Simpson has a 1981 Honda XL125s for sale and is willing to deliver it
to the Lost Hills flying site. Norman Poti has storage space in shed #3.
This is a perfect opportunity for an out of state, or out of country modeler
to procure a bike with little minimal effort. Contact Roger Simpson at
916-686-1301 e-mail This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. for bike details, and Norman Poti
at 937-882-6015 e-mail This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. for storage shed details. See you all
at the MaxMen.
F1P FINI
========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I regard Martin Dilly as a good friend and a tireless worker for model
flying so when he remonstrates with me (SEN 776) on the F1P affair I
shall take heed. Therefore, Roger, if you could spare me a few more of
your precious column inches to clarify my position then I shall (unless
prodded very provocatively!) retire from the F1P discussion.
I think I am being accused of being part of the 'anti F1P lobby'. That
is not so, I have not commented on the F1P rules. The issue is far more
important than one set of rules. I am confident that the majority of
flyers want all proposed rule changes to be discussed at National level
before they are voted on at CIAM. That did not happen in this case. The
rules were introduced, not just without discussion at National level but
without people at National level even knowing there was anything to
discuss! What made it worse, in my eyes, was the immediate claim that it
was within the 'law' as if a legal loophole overrides moral obligations.
I am disturbed that Martin returns to this attitude when he says in his
correspondence: "Whether or not the objectors are aware of it, F1J is
still a provisional class and can thus be amended at less than four year
intervals."
Turning now to the suggestion that the rules were introduced because of
an Urgent Junior Problem. There is not an Urgent Junior Problem. The FAI
are, presumably, talking of the fact that not many juniors fly in free
flight competitions. I am not sure that that is a problem but, in any
case, as it has been going on for about fifty years, it is certainly not
urgent.
What we do have is an Urgent Senior Problem. Free Flight flyers are
getting older and dwindling in numbers. Soon there won't be enough of us
to make National competitions viable. That seems to indicate a need for
Newcomers (not necessarily juniors) but where are they to come from? The
British Model Flying Association has 35 000 members and about one
percent of those are Free Flight flyers. So why can't we attract some of
the other 99% to take up Free Flight? Well, look what we have to offer.
About five flying fields in the whole country so you can enjoy 200 miles
of sightseeing on the way. Half a dozen people to fly against when you
get there and perhaps twenty for a major event. Friendly landowners all
around as long as you don't venture on their property. And don't forget
to pack everything in the car because the flying ground is never
cluttered with Club Houses and food and toilets. I do not think that
that picture is exclusive to this country.
Yes, we have problems in Free Flight but it is not Juniors. We should be
spending time on our real problems.
Something I nearly forgot. Not flying F1P does not stop you flying in
the next Junior Championships - unless there is another twist in the
rules I don't know about.
Best regards
John Barker - England
Excerpt from Vol Libre
======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Originally in Vol Libre 117
What's wrong with free flight?
The quuestion was posed by Walt Schroeder, the then editor of "Model
Airplane News"(1967). I was in New York on business and, having some free
time, paid a visit to the offices of MAN, situated, ironically, not far from
Madison Avenue, the site of some of the largest advertising agencies in the
world.
"The magazines are what's wrong with free flight" I responded. Which led
Walt to invite me to lunch to discuss the matter further.
I think that an aeromodeller is born an aeromodeller. If he is not exposed
to aeromodelling, he will not realise he is a modellist and could die
without seeing a piece of balsa or a model in flight that he has built
himself. And that would be a pity for our movement, wouldn't it? There are
aeromodellers who are not born to the sport, and by chance have taken it up
with friends so as not to be alone or inactive, but they are not like
aeromodellers born. You and I nkow them- those with talent. The qualities of
these gifted individuals are
dexterity,intelligence,passion,tenacity,imagination,etc,things with which we
are all familiar. Therefore, the way to find these latent modellers is to
visit the schools where the teachers will tell you that this boy here and
that one there have thew qualities you are looking for. These boys are then
invited to a contest and later to join a club and the rest is only logical.
The source exists, therefore, it is just the difficulty in finding it.
But stop talking about the rules within free flight. That's all superficial.
Who is going to help the beginner> Who? Who? You,sir? Reply:"I don't have
the time" But if you want something done, you ask the busy man, don't you?
"And pardon me, but how long is the moment arm of your ship?" "I don't
know,let me go and fly!" And so on. Me and me and me.
In Hungary last year,Tony Mathews asked for some details about a propellor.
It was as if he was trying to pull a tooth. The modeller avoided the
questions, changed the subject, finally rose and went away. What was he
trying to hide? Frank Zaic said in an introduction to one of his
Yearbooks,"Someone else,somewhere else will find the same thing, It is just
a question of time!".
The same attitude with a US modeller of my acquaintance. While friend Burdov
stayed wiith him, they talked about the improvements he could make to his
F1B, the changes in adjustemnts. He told me that he had made copious notes
of all that Burdov had said. But when I asked him what these were, he
replied "Not now!" - "I don't have my notebooks here!" Things were a little
clearer when i watched his model before and after Burdov had waved his magic
wand. He thought that this information was for him alone. All for
himself.Its not for anyone else. He owed nothing to anyone. Me and me...
What else could you call this but self-centred?
What aeromodelling needs and more particularly free flight, is publicity.
Look at all the other sports. They are on TV, in the newspapers, on the
billboards and in the mouths of everyone. The result? a great following for
each sport where the creme-de-la-creme rise to the top to form the world
famous clubs who in turn form farm teams(2nd quality,3rd quality,etc) down
to the grass roots level. This can be seen as a form of pyramid with the
apex the cream who can count on a vast population to dream of them but also
to SUPPORT the. What do we have in freeflight?
NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NO publicity. NO farm teams. NO vast population
to encourage the great competitors who in turn will ensure the continual
growth of the sport.
I'm sure if you went to a large advertising agency and asked them to promote
freeflight, the first thing they would ask for is a little MARKET RESAERCH.
They would then quickly find a group of self- centred beings who from time
to time feel sorry for themselves, and are more intent in hiding things from
one another and thinking of themselves alone than in having a broad view of
their activity/sport. Compare the typical freeflight modeller with a typical
footballer or tennis player and you will see what I mean. They are too
intent on "my latest little marvel that I MADE MYSELF!"
Whenever free-flight(or aeromodelling in general)has an exhibition or
appears in the papers, everyong says,"How marvellous!" "Now we'll show the
world what we are about!" etc. As if that was really a world-shattering
event. But Mr. Public just looks upon it as another thing to do. He hasn't
been educated via the newspapers,TV,etc., just as he does not underestand
abstract art because he has not been educated as to why it exists.
Publicity must be continuous, not just a flash in the pan, for Mr Public
forgets very easily. That's very important. Publicity must be regular and
ongoing if it is to be successful. You have only to look at TV to see it,
and in the cash receipts of the supermarkets and sports stores to see the
results. You must remember also thhat Mr.Public is assailed from all sides
by publicity so he has become somewhat blase; and because there are only so
many hours in the day, must select the things which give him the best
returns for his time and money in the form of satisfaction. So not only must
there be publicity, it must be directed INTELLIGENTLY and above all must be
PRODUCTIVE publicity. You can't leave this in the hands of aeromodellers,
for what do they know of publicity. You must go to the professionals to do
the job.
But, you say.that costs money and we don't have any even if we ask the FAI
for some, as I have done. The GET SOME!! There are companies whose sole task
is to raise funds for projects like this. They sollicit millions from
companies known and unknown, and were not interetsed in small sums, such as
the $5000 canadian that I asked for to send our teams to the World
Championships. We must stop thinking negatively, and get out and do
something - don't leave it to someone else for they will probably thinking
the same as you,etc.
You see, it needs someone outside the movement to see the problem clearly.
Most aeromodellers are too close to their creations("like to see my little
marvel again, mister?") to do this., particularly in freeflight. There are
few who can, perhaps Hardy Broderson is one.
But,you say, the general public is not "air conscious" as it was in the
'30s. They see only 747s and Space Shuttles now. But how do thhey see these
jets and satellites? Via publicity, that's how! And how were they "air
conscious" in the '30s? It was not something that just happened. It was
brought about by publicity,- in the newspapers and on the wireless. Mr
Public would have known very little about Charles Lindbergh and Alcock and
Brown iif it was not for the publicity via radio and newspapers. Do I make
that clear? At the Jimmy Allen contests in the USA in the '30s there were
crowds of 10,000 at some of the LOCAL events. Ah, but they were sponsored by
the newspapers who found that the publicity helped admirably to sell there
paper. 10,000 eh, ole' buddy? Makes ya think,eh?
Let's look at freeflight from another angle. In the '30s, you made your own
airplane and took part in the contests which were orgaised for you and your
ilk. Today,things are exactly the same. And you know what happens to a
species which is inflexible and not willing to change, to adapt? That's
right: it DIES!!!!!
What happens to all the modellers who come into the movement, and take and
take what they want from it?Do they, when satiated, help in organisation and
promotion? Are you kidding?. Convert to timekeepers, to driving the club bus
or to help in finding new flying fields? You must be joking!.Or perhaps go
and discuss with the teachers or with the assistant mayors delegated to
sports? Not on your cotton-pickin' life! No, they just disappear and go
fishing or such where they start to take and take on a different level. Look
at all the other sports. Does this happen there too? I don't think so. So
you can see that the typical modeller type is a poor example of the human
race, more to be pitied than felt sorry for. We need a complete cleanout of
all this dead wiood and a new beginning with a different, more aware, more
broad-looking personnel to people it. We need even to rethink the basis of
our movement and its structure such as it is. Perhaps a NEW GENERATION in
both senses of the phrase.("Hey,want to see my little marvel,eh,eh? Made it
all be myself,too!"). My, isn't that clever of you. Now go and make a tennis
racquet.
Re: SEN Junior Program
======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
With all due respect to Biggles, I think he has rather lost the plot
on this one. The problem is that he is confusing the idea of an
international program for attracting juniors with the concept of the
Junior World Champs. Both are excellent objectives but they are not
the same.
Simply put, the capabilities of an entry-level 12 year old are not at
all the same as the capabilities of that same junior at 17 with five
year's free flight experience under his belt. The 17 year old is the
potential WC competitor, not the 12 year old with his first three
models.
I think that entry-level outdoor capability would be best built on
the Science Olympics or Graupner Uhu experience with an outdoor free
flight model whose performance and noise parameters are adjusted so
it can be flown in the sort of space that park fliers can use. Lets
face it, if the kids can't come to the free flight field, then the
field needs to go to them.
Turning to the Junior Champs, if the current set of classes is
thought to be too hard to build and fly, there is always the
possibility of switching to F1G, F1H and F1P. Limit functions on F1G
and F1H if you feel its really necessary and mandate plastic props
for F1P, but DON'T change the models in any way that prevents them
being flown in regular mini-events, because that could restrict
junior participation in contests.
In summary, class by class:
F1G: many successful models are locked up already, so its unclear to
me whether functional restrictions are needed. A pukka F1G flyer
should comment here.
F1H: Maybe a bunt ban would be sensible for juniors. A circle model
fitted with a commercial tow hook and single function timer is no
harder to set up than a straight tow model. This type of model is
also competitive in regular F1H contests.
F1P: as the rules stand an F1P is street-legal for F1J events. This
seems to have been forgotten in all the shouting. Northern Light is
almost an F1P (needs an extra 60 sq.in of wing and 30 g weight). I've
seen that design give a very good account of itself in F1J events.
Martin Gregorie
Heartland Juniors
=================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
If we are looking for a sucessful Junior program, perhaps we should look to
the USA heartland that produced the #1 F1D Jr team at the Salt Mine last
year. Not only that, but they would have placed 2 team members on the Sr
podium and top flyer was 3 sec shy of Jim Richmond's longest individual
flight.
These kids are a product of the Science Olympiad program which had much
support by the indoor community eg mentors, CD Roms on building SO, great
communication via This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and parental encouragement.
Other differences are simpler, cheaper models and much testing can be done
at a local gym, rather than 50+ mi away. On the other hand non had
recognizable indoor names and had to build their own models.
There has to be a message there,
H
..........................
Roger Morrell
