SEN-387 March 16 2000
- Category: Archive 2000
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News and Reports 2000 - First half
SCAT Electronic News 16 March 2000
Table of Contents
RCDT - Klintworth
Where are the "Sports"men - Dona
Cheating ??? - Gutai
Lost & [not ?] Found field bin - Busnelli
RDT is the future of Free Flight - Gewain
Survey Comments -King
ICAREX - Abad
Cheating - Ackery
CIAM Committees. - Malkin
The problem of cheating using the RCDT System should be simple to solve. =
The transmitter is handed to the Timer. The flyer flies an official =
flight. When the Flyer is ready to DT the model the Timer hands the =
transmitter back to the Flyer. At this point the watch is stoped and it =
becomes the official flight time.
Where are the "Sports"men
After reading Ivan Horejsi's point of view (sport classes)I think the
the survey are irrelevant.
Number of people answering: 127
Adding only classes: A, B & C you get 156
Obviously most of the voters are active FAI flyers which more likely
will not leave the current FAI classes to fly on Sport events!!
FAI flyers are concerned that people not flying their events will i
still cast their
votes on rules changing situation.
Well, here it's exactly the same situation ( in reverse!!)
It'll be nice to know how many modellers (not flying FAI now) will come to fly
the Sport classes!!
[ Alberto- I will do a further analysis to see how many respondents were
type A, how many tpe B then how many the rest. There were a reasonable
number who were not these categories, such as yourself. There were
also a one or two that said that this might encourage them to get started or
to fly another class.
The results may not be what you expect. Many times I found
myself in the beginner category and I find it condescending
that people think I want to fly a simple model. I prefer to
be able to make that choice myself as to what features
of a top model I do not want to use. I understand that there
might be a performance penalty. But I want to be able to
fly what the top guys are flying if a I want. I also realize that
if a top guy flys this sport class he is probably going to beat
me. What is may be better to help beginners is to rank the sportsmen
or provide trophies for people who have not won a major event.
Maybe the real problem is that the real new people have not read the
survey, seeing they do not know about us yet !
While talking about the Survey I had got a few more replies and will prepare a
ammended result as soon as I get back from Lost Hills after the SCAT Annual. So
if anyone has not sent in a reply and wants to they should do it right away]
This is an open letter to Bob Mattes and anyone else who feels that
our "sportsman" knowingly cheat.
Yes, we do run our engines as close to 5 seconds as is humanly
possible, We need every bit of the 4.5 seconds of actual engine run we
can get.(4.5 plus approx. . 5 sec. for the sound to reach the timers
ears) And yes, we are guilty of mass launches.
First a lesson in basic physics: When timing engine runs, the timer
needs to be at the launch location, not sitting under a tent several
hundred feet upwind. This in itself will add several tenths of a second
to the time it takes for the sound to reach the "Second Guesser". At the
Nats, I was running about 4.95sec,( a legal run being 5.09sec) and my
timers were getting that time. Those upwind were getting these in some
cases as over-runs(to the point where I was called over on one run by
those under that tent, and had to repeat the flight). The flight in
question was one that went slightly off pattern and went further
downwind than normal, which adds a little more time for the sound to
reach the timer. By the way, the second flight had the same engine
setting, a good pattern, and guess what, a legal run. I have a quote
from Ed Keck to throw in."People sitting under tents several hundred
feet away from the flight line are like Sea Captains on shore, Useless."
I really don't see a way to eliminate mass launches. It was tried in
the mid '70's and did not work, so it was repealed. Picture the the
tacticians. Flyoff on a rotation with the second flyer, not being able
to fly until the first flyers engine stops. Flyer no. 1 waits for a
thermal, and holds back until he feels it is almost gone and flys. Guess
what down air is left for the rest of the pack. Enough said, rule was
changed. By the way, the thought has never occurred to me to deafen some
ones timer during a mass launch. It is more of, I need to get my model
in that air now,sensation. And I am certain, Most F1C flyers feel the
Engine disassembled? The last time was when I made the team in '96 at
Lost Hills. This would not be a place to cheat as it is too easy to
check. The fact that it is not checked more often is probably indicative
of this. You want to check, you are most welcome at any time.
To sum up, if I felt that I was cheating or that others were to this
extent, I would have quit this Hobby/Sport a long time ago. And Mr.
Mattes, no I don't hate you, just strongly disagree with your opinions.
I felt that, since you brought things to this forum they needed a
Sincerely, Bob Gutai
Lost & [not ?] Found field bin
During the Max Men I dropped a V. Stamov timer winder key around the
flight line or perhaps a bit away from it while towing. I told/asked many
people (CD included) and nobody had found/returned such an item.
Chances are that it is going to show up this coming weekend. Would you please
forward this note to the flyers for them to know who lost it ?
RDT is the future of Free Flight
Back in 1984 I lost an F1A model in the woods after a DT timer failed and I
decided to try the latest technology a tracking radio to improve my chances
of not loosing models. As we all know now they work great and as a result I
have not lost a single model since that day.
Recently I decided to try flying F1C again, I had stopped flying the event
in the late 70's because the models had very short lives. Looking at the
current technology of RDT it is now possible to build an F1C model that is
much harder to crash.
As an example last weekend I took a new model over to Taft to fly and on the
first flight I set the engine run to 5 seconds and the DT to 180. Of course
the model was not trimmed, and within a second or so it started to pitch
over toward the ground. I commanded the engine cut off and a second later
the RDT ended the flight. Because I was able to let the model fly as long as
it was on course and then terminate the flight as needed within three flight
the model was nearly trimmed. I think that RDT has changed F1C for the
better. As the systems become widely available I think the number of people
flying F1C will increase. Also the ability to fly in smaller fields closer
to populated areas will increase the participation in F1A and F1B.
Most of the negative discussion about RDT is concerned with the possibility
of someone using an capability of the system intended for trimming during an
official flight. One solution is certified timers that have a jumper plug
that limits the capability of the timer to official functions when the plug
is in place. The modeler would locate the socket that the jumper would fit
into on the outside of the model or under a hatch then the timer could
verify that the plug was in place before each official flight.
If the timer manufacturer was approved to build certified timers when the
modeler buys a timer it would have an official sticker that the could be
verified during model processing.
We could extend this the use of certified timers to solve the F1C engine
timing problem. If the jumper plug is in place on the timer the motor run
time is set at the factory to 5 sec. With no capability to lengthen the run
so there is now no need to time the run on official flights.
What a breath of fresh air to read the results of your SEN survey!!!
Congratulations and thanks to SCAT for running such a good and constructive
poll. It is heart warming and instructive to finally have a clearer idea
of the opinions of a substantial cross section of our fellow flyers and a
great relief, to me for one, to see that sanity does indeed prevail amongst
so many of us !!! We now know where we are going but I am afraid this
will not prevent even more correspondance on the matters discussed. I can
here it now....all the people who will argue about the validity and the
results of the poll !! I shall not be among them!!!!! I can however
see the ramifications of using RDT. It could be used to effect the flight of
the model and part of me is fascinated with the possibilities for retrimming
during flight, although I can well see the reason for the objections. Maybe
it would no longer be Free Flight. I can't help thinking back to the days
though, when RC was just starting. No one considered it to be a problem and
it was just a fascinating new development in our search to '' improve" the
sport. It seems that the later comercial take off of RC was responsible for
creating a schism in our ranks that has never healed and I wonder how much of
the debate about RDT is colored by this antagonism(??) I think things have
moved to the point that there is a real problem of loosing the Free from Free
Flight but I can still see a new exciting approach on the horizon if the
rules can be changed and more importantly, enforced, to allow a little
tweaking of the flight. This would be 'one giant leap' for 'Free' Flight
and I doubt if it will ever be condoned. However the idea still appeals to
me provided it was obtainable by every one at a reasonable price and still,
as I suspect it would, lead to a situation where the best fliers still had
the edge. Of course I am simply indulging in a very personal opinion or
rather, fantasy !! I await the next development, for or against, with
I have bought a few meters ICAREX for my F1A wings.
So far I have tried poliester VLIES/Polyspan and Micafilm.
I would apreciate any advice on using it, ironing temperature, etc....
The debate on RCDT has been interesting as opinions from all points of
the spectrum come out. But the debate is growing wider into discussing
cheating. How it can be done, how it could be done, who is doing it now,
and has done so in the past, certain occasions and incidents get
I find this very disturbing.
It is not why I do Free Flight.
Free Flight is a challenge in many ways, and if it was too easy then I
think most of us would not be interested. But to cheat to achieve a
better score or contest result is not something that bears
I feel sad that there should be so much material to feed this
discussion, and that it should be so far in the front of peoples minds.
Of course it is possible to cheat in big ways, and also the small ways
that only one person knows about, but the person who does so is the
- if I am timing for a friend and the engine burbles and goes over by
0,3 of a second the I must still give him an over run.
- if I recruit a non flier to time for me, then I have to advise them of
the timekeeping rules, for example if the model flies behind trees they
must count to 10, and then clock off and deduct ten if it does not come
into back into sight
- if my flight goes out of sight, even though I know that it still
flying , the watch must be stopped
- and on and on.
Accept the lesser score, and come back next time and try to do better.
It is the challenge, and risk that make free flight what it is.
And if you see some cheating, please do not tell us about afterwards,
that does NOT help. When it happens lodge a formal protest with the
contest director and have the mater resolved. Our sport will be better
In our democratic world of Free Flight we always appear to be
fighting "The Organisation" alias the CIAM and I got to thinking about the
elected officers and how they get to be in the positions that they are.
When I look at the top three, I see that of those people only one , to my
knowledge, actively competes in at least one of the three main FAI
classes - F1A,F1B, and F1C.
Perhaps it is time to have a change of management in this group in
order that they are more in touch with what the Sportsmen/modellers of
the real world are asking, but I am unsure of how they are duly elected.
Can someone enlighten me as to how this procedure is undertaken. Is it
annually or biennially or what ? Hopefully, they are not like the Olympic
Organisation and elected for life, or are they?.
Thanks for all the work you are doing to get the message out, and with
some luck ? the results of your poll will be taken onboard by our