SCAT Electronic News 25 January 1999
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- Category: Archive 1999
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SCAT Electronic News 25 January 1999
Table of Contents
=================
FIC and F1J .. back to Texaco ? **
Engine run F1c
America's Cup Results . Different format
Visitor Insurance
Re note on my letter of Jan. 24
CIAM rules change procedures
Burped into the frozen hyper-tundra.
Now On Line - Florida FF Calendar
FIC and F1J .. back to Texaco ? **
=================================
From: Bruce Augustus
Roger,
Regarding the Italian proposal to control F1C and F1J engine run times, I
have received a draft from Mario Rocca, and he proposes using an
eyedropper-like device or fixed length of fuel tubing, so each airplane is
launched with the same amount of fuel. There would be no other method of
limiting engine run time.
BA
[**
The Texaco event was one of the first for gas powered models -
it limited the amount of fule and was sponsored by the Texaco oil
company in the '30s. It is still flown as a SAM event. ]
Engine run F1c
==============
Hi Roger good to see your back on the site. I think the engine run in
F1C should not be timed at all. If someone wants to cheat let them. The bottom
line is to much grief about the rules and not enough on the fun of going to
and flying. There are so few F1C flyers it would not take one whole season to
realize the cheaters. see you next month, Charlie Stiles
America's Cup Results . Different format
========================================
by Bill Bogart
Some people commented that they had trouble
reading the previous offereing so maybe this is
more readable.
Bill came up with this idea himself.. but it
is similar to that used by Ian Kaynes in FFN for the World Cup.
Contest Symbols
AC Autumn Cup - TX
NC NorCal FF Champs - Sacramento CA
CI CIA Hoosier CUP - Muncie IN
NW NO FF Champs - Tanent OR
DC Dynasty Cup - Denver CO
PC Patterson FAI Challenge - Lost Hills CA
EC Eastern US FF Champs - Ingleside MD
SC SCAT Annual - Lost Hills CA
IC Intercity FAI - Muncie IN
SF S W FAI Challenge - Las Vegas NV
IM IMAC and Bong Eagles FAI - Muncie IN
SI Sierra Cup - Sacramento CA
KO King Orange Intl - Palm Bay FL
SS Spring Cup - Seguin TX
LV Cal FAI Invit - Lost Hills CA
SW Southwestern Regionals - Eloy TX
MC McLaughlan - Pensaacola FL
TC Texas Cloud Climbers - Allen TX
MD MMM 14 Rounder - Denver CO
UC US Outdoor Champs - Muncie IN
MM MaxMen 14 Rounder - Lost Hills CA
WF Western FAI Challenge - Harts Lake WA
F1A
Andrew Barron EC21 IC20 SI23 KO26 90 StevenCoussens,jr SC25 25
Brian Van Nest SW 9 NC28 LV20 PC29 86 Herb Robbins UC25 25
Randy Weiler SW29 MM25 SC10 SI18 82 Dave Ellis,jr KO21 21
Hector Diez SW19 NC23 LV25 SI 8 75 Tony Italiano IM21 21
Chuck Markos UC20 IM26 LV15 61 Pete McQuade MD10 DC10 20
Risto Puhakka SC30 NC 8 PC 9 61 Lee Hines SF18 18
Don Zink LV30 SI28 58 Robert Klipp IC 5 IM11 16
Jim Parker SW24 SF13 PC19 56 Bill Sharb IM16 16
Jim Bradley MM15 MC20 KO16 51 Tzvetan Tzvetkov EC16 16
Mike Fedor SS15 MC15 TC10 AC10 50 John Barron,jr IC15 15
Tom Coussens MM20 SC15 NC13 48 Peter Barron,jr KO11 11
Mike McKeever SF23 PC24 47 Omer Erguner EC11 11
Bob Sifleet IC25 UC15 40 George Avila TC 5 AC 5 10
Steve Spence SS 5 TC15 AC20 40 Don Leath MC10 10
Peter Allnutt SC20 PC14 34 Willard Smitz MD5 DC5 10
Pierre Brun UC30 30 K Fags EC 6 6
Matt Gewain MM30 30 Adam Marsh,jr IM 6 6
Martyn Cowley NC18 UC10 28 Lee Campbell CI 5 5
Dallas Parker,jr SF28 28 Harry Grogan MC 5 5
Aram Schlosberg EC26 26
F1B
Al Brush SW10 MM25 LV30 SF28 93 Mike Achterberg SW20 20
Vladi Andriukov SW25 MM30 NC29 84 Bob Dunham II TC20 20
George Batiuk SW15 MC20 SI25 PC20 80 Tom Laird SF18 18
Paul Crowley IC17 MD17 IM21 LV25 80 Rod Ioerger KO16 16
Jerry McGlashan MM15 IC22 UC20 SI15 72 Fred Pierce AC15 15
Roger Morrell NC19 IM26 PC15 60 Bill Shailor CI15 15
Larry Norvall MM20 SC15 SF23 58 Jim Stafford TC15 15
Tom Ioerger UC30 IM 6 KO21 57 J Pratt SF13 13
Jerry Fitch SW30 PC25 55 Joe Frebis IC12 12
Blake Jensen LV20 PC30 50 Jim OReilly MD12 12
Walt Ghio SC25 NC14 39 Rex Hinson MC 5 KO 6 11
Bob Piserchio SO30 SF 8 38 Bill Kozak IM11 11
Jim Brooks EC15 UC15 CI 5 35 Mike Roberts WF11 11
Bob Tymchek LV15 SI20 35 Bob Sifleet KO11 11
Fred Blom EC 5 IC27 32 Norm Furutani PC10 10
Herb Sessums MM10 SC20 30 Don Hockaday AC10 10
John Sessums SC30 30 Louis Joyner MC10 10
Roger Maves MD27 27 Jim Luken SC10 10
Dan Tracy UC10 WF16 26 John ODwyer TC10 10
John Klapp UC25 25 John Watters CI10 10
Ed Turner TC25 25 Dick Woods SI10 10
Alex Andriukov NC24 24 Mark Bennett NC 9 9
Chris Matsuno IC 7 IM16 23 Bill Gibbons MD 7 7
Dave Saks MD22 22 L Schroeder WF 6 6
Rick Ewing WF21 21 George Avila AC 5 5
F1C
Ed Keck SW23 MM30 SC27 SI28 108 Dave Halliday MM20 20
Henry Spence SS25 TC15 UC19 AC25 84 Mark Troutman SS15 15
Roger Simpson SW18 MM25 NC20 SI18 81 Frank Schlachta UC14 14
Bob Gutai MM10 IC26 UC29 KO15 80 Daryl Perkins SW13 13
Randy Archer SW28 SC17 LV100 55 Hardy Brodersen IC11 11
John Warren SC22 PC26 48 Ed Carroll NC10 10
Faust Parker SS20 MC15 AC10 45 Mike Fedor SS 5 AC 5 10
Doug Galbreath SI23 PC21 44 K Kibiki TC10 10
Terry Kerger SW 8 LV19 PC16 43 Ken Phair MD10 10
Bob Waterman LV29 SI13 42 Norm Poti IM 5 CI 5 10
Don Chesson IC16 UC24 40 Reid Simpson SS10 10
Joe Mekina IC21 CI15 36 Mark Wood CI10 10
Doug Joyce SC 7 NC15 SI 8 SF 5 35 Bob Dunham II TC 5 5
Bob Sifleet IM15 KO10 25 Chuck Etherington MD 5 5
Dave Sugden LV24 24 Andrei Kirilenko ED 5 5
F1H
Martyn Cowley MM27 SC25 NC27 UC30 109 Vic Nippert EC16 16
Brian Van Nest SW25 MM22 UC25 SF25 97 Lee Campbell IC10 10
Norm Smith SW10 NC17 SI15 PC15 57 Ben Coussens jr SF15 15
Jean Pailet EC11 IC20 CI10 KO15 56 Bob Sifleet IM15 15
Walt Ghio SW20 MM17 SC10 47 Mark Troutman SS15 15
Tom Ioerger EC 6 IC25 UC15 46 Stan Buddenbohm MM12 12
Dave Ellis jr EC26 KO10 36 Anne Halsey NC12 12
Pierre Brun PC25 25 Robert Lane MM 7 IM 5 12
Mike Fedor SS10 MC 5 UC10 25 Chris Matsuno IM10 10
Chuck Markos IC15 LV10 25 Steve Spence TC10 10
Risto Puhakka SW 5 SF20 25 Bob Thorn MC10 10
Willard Smitz SW15 DC10 25 Trevor Bridge SF 5 5
Clayton Halsey NC22 22 Arik Donde PC 5 5
Ed Pelatowski EC21 21 Bill Etherington DC 5 5
Bernard Boehm UC20 20 Joe Mekina IC 5 5
Bob Norton SI10 PC10 20 Faust Parker SS 5 5
Bill Sharb IM20 20 Jackie Sheffer TC 5 5
Randy Weiler LV20 20 Bill Staley KO 5 5
F1G
Bob White SW28 MM27 SI25 PC27 107 Jon Zeisloft SF20 20
Joseph Williams MM17 IC26 UC10 KO21 74 George Batiuk MC17 17
John Klapp MM22 EC21 UC15 SF 5 63 Al Hotard PC17 17
Dick Wood LV10 SF25 PC12 47 Jim Stafford TC17 17
John Kamla NC26 NW20 46 Rod Ioerger KO16 16
Mike Davis NC16 SI20 36 Chuck Markos IC11 IM5 16
Jerry Fitch SW18 MM12 30 Chris Parkyn IC16 16
Ross Jahnke UC30 30 Dick Anderson NW15 15
Jack Emery SC28 28 John ODwyer MM7 MC8 15
Dave Henderson MC28 28 Ed Sneed CI15 15
Dan Smith TC27 27 Charlie Stiles SW13 13
Bill Creshenbury SW 8 SC18 26 Jeff Dunlap MC12 12
Ray Factor KO26 26 Ed Wiley TC12 12
Bob Hatschek EC26 26 John Barron jr 11
Hank Cole LV25 25 Bob Mathison EC11 11
Andy Ringlten UC25 25 Larry Norvall NC6 LV5 11
John Pratt SC13 NC11 24 Gene Borchers NW10 10
Bob Critchlow SC 8 LV15 23 George Hilliard TC 7 7
Jim OReilly SW23 23 John Sessums PC 7 7
Bob Thorn MC23 23 Fred Blom EC 6 6
Gene Jensen PC22 22 T Bowls KO 6 6
Fred Pearce TC22 22 Breshan SI 5 5
Chris Matsuno IC 6 IM15 21 Jim Brooks CI 5 5
Dale Wilson IC21 21 John Fitz NW 5 5
Peter Brocks SI10 SF10 20 Wade Gunn SS 5 5
George Clowes IM20 20 Mark Sexton WF 5 5
Edward Vargo UC20 20
F1J
Faust Parker SW20 SS20 MC25 UC25 90 Bob Stalick NW10 WF10 20
Steve Spence MM25 SS25 TC21 71 Jackie Sheffer TC16 16
Bruce Augustus SC 5 NW25 LV15 SI25 70 David Adams MC15 15
Ken Happersett SW25 SC20 LV10 SI15 70 Don Bartick SW15 15
Jean Pailet EC20 IC11 CI15 KO20 66 Dan Beluff EC15 15
Bill Vanderbeek NC25 NW15 SI20 60 Ed Carroll SC15 15
Robert Johannas UC30 IM26 56 Terry Kerger PC15 15
Keith Fulmer IC26 IM16 42 Marvin Mace SS15 15
Jim Haught NC10 IM 6 CI20 36 Randy Archer SW10 10
Dave Parsons NC 5 LV20 SI10 35 Mike Fedor SC5 MC5 10
Bob Perkins MM20 KO15 35 Jason Greer UC10 10
Lee Campbell IC16 CI10 26 Donald Hockaday SW5 MM5 10
Robert Hanford TC26 26 Rob Ludwigsen EC10 10
Bo Clinton KO25 25 Charlie Murphy KO10 10
Adam Higgs EC25 25 Russ Snyder SS10 10
Jack Marsh IC21 21 John Erin TC 6 6
Joe Mekina IC 6 CI 5 PC10 21 Tim Lunsford NW 5 5
Jason Poti jr IM21 21 Don Simkins KO 5 5
Bob Combs SC10 MC10 20 Ross Thompson WF 5 5
Bill Lynch NC15 SI 5 20 Mark Troutman SS 5 5
Norm Poti UC20 20 Frank Wike EC 5 5
Mike Roberts NW20 20
Visitor Insurance
=================
From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
Your point about "visitor"s' organizations possibly not having insurance
coverage is very important. Apparently very few--if any--of the other
countries have such coverage.
I don't know the particulars of BMFA coverage, or whether AMA and the British
shared in the Sierra Cup claim, but I have been told by top AMA officers on
several occasions that this was a very large claim in terms of dollars paid by
AMA's insurance carrier. (This is part of the general "hazing" I take from
time to time about being a Free Flighter in a predominantly RC organization.
Depite the razzing, I have no reason to doubt that the amount paid was
significant.)
I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, but I can see why everyone should be
covered, in case something happens again.
Re note on my letter of Jan. 24
===============================
From: Marcel Lavoie
I indicated October l986 Aeromodeller in error, in fact it is 1996. I
hope I did not make anyone search in vain .
The method described allows drawing an airfoil 5 or 6 times faster than
using the NACA tables in the traditional
way. Of course if one has a computer pro-gram with a million airfoils,
my method is passé.
Begging the Editor's patience on the question of F1B rules, in an
earlier letter I had indicated that my method
of flying with 20 gram motors was to keep the same number of strands as
the normal F1B, or in other words cut
the motor length in half. In this way the model flies with the same
maximum torque, but the motor run is halved.
There should not be any problem with the trim of the model, and the
ingenuity of modellers should find ways
to switch form a 40 gram motor to a , say, 20 gram motor without any
real problems. Don't forget to bring the
model back up to regulation weight. Maybe someone will try it on this
continent!
Marcel Lavoie
CIAM rules change procedures
============================
Roger,
I liked the thoughtful analysis of certifiable F1C timers by Rod Mogle.
That, together with Anselmo Zeri's calculations on the effect of F1B rule
changes, i.e. calculating or measuring the actual effect of the rule change
instead of just guessing, makes a welcome change from some recent rule
change proposals. This makes me wonder if the CIAM should introduce a new
procedural rule with immediate effect. This would require all rule change
proposals that affect the model specification or flying techniques to be
accompanied by documented experimental evidence of the effect of the change.
In other words:
- if the proposal affects the model specification then comparative trials
of models built to the current and proposed rules must have been run. The
supporting documentation for the proposal must include both flight time
measurements and subjective comments from participants on the effect of the
change on future model developments, handling, landing damage, etc.
- if the proposal affects contest organisation then the rules must have
been used at least once in a properly organised event, i.e. one flown in
rounds from poles with timekeepers, a jury and with a large enough entry to
allow proper extrapolation to a continental or world champs. The supporting
documentation must include comments from both the jury and contestants. For
this purpose the jury would be there primarily to provide an independent
assessment of the effect of the proposal. I think the CIAM ruling on
pre-published local rules may serve to allow this type of trial during an
international event.
This may seem like an un-necessarily bureaucratic suggestion but it would
have the major benefit of excluding unworkable proposals from consideration
and, hopefully, eliminate the introduction of rules so bad or unpopular that
they are subsequently repealed.
I notice that there seems to be an agreement that something needs to be done
about flyoffs, the consequent long retrievals and the need for large fields.
However, there seem to be two camps with opposed attitudes to flyoffs:
(a) we shouldn't make it harder to get in the flyoff because you only
have fun if you get into it - largely a US attitude from recent
published comments
(b) flyoffs exist only to resolve ties after the rounds have been flown and
so should be the exception rather than the rule
I think the way forward is first to seek agreement on the true purpose of
holding flyoffs. The insight gained from this will then be a reliable guide
to choosing the changes to model specifications and/or organisational rules
we need to achieve this purpose.
Position declaration:
I have a leaning to camp (b) and I suspect most organisers do too. Further,
I have a dislike of any rule change that encourages the use of a special
flyoff model, let alone one that mandates it. I have enough trouble finding
the time to develop and build one model series per class, thanks!
I liked the organisation used by the Hungarians at the Puszta Cup in the
late 80s very much. They flew fly 7 rounds from dawn to 11am with a 5 minute
first round. I can't remember if the round length needed to be reduced to
achieve this. The first round counted as 3 minutes unless you maxed out,
when the extra time was used as a tie-breaker, with evening flyoffs only if
there was still a tie. I flew in two of these and neither needed a glider
flyoff despite Stefan Rumpp's 300 in the first round at one of them. Note
that the event followed the CIAM guide-lines of flying early and late to
avoid thermal rounds. They were hot weather contests too - it was a decided
bonus to be able to go back to the hotel for a shower and cold drink at
midday.
Martin Gregorie
Harlow, UK
[comment
Martin
It's not clear that 'everyone' want to change the fly off situation
or the F1B rules for that matter.
I think the attitude here is not that you only have fun if you get in the
fly off.. but some people feel that they are rather second
rate if they don't. This is because the standard is so high
so one little slip up puts you right down the results list.
We [SCAT] used to have contests with
longer first rounds and your buddy Ken Oliver had all kinds of
long rounds in Big Al's Shoot Out but we got static for 'not conforming
to the FAI rules'.
I like your idea of making the person who submits the rules
show evidence of the intended effect.
In this forum we get comments from many people, some active
'sportsman', some retired sportsman and others.
It is important to get ideas from everywhere and I not
want to discourage this. But it is important not to change
the rules as to discourage the current contestants after all
they are the people who most support the events.
Just because we have discussion it does not necessarily reflect
the opinion of the active sportsmen. Doug Joyce for example
says his flying program does not give him time for the Internet.
end comment]
Burped into the frozen hyper-tundra.
====================================
From: Rocket
Roger
I sent this out last week and eather you decided that
it was not worthy of your fine E-publication or, as I suspect,
my Alaskan "bush" server burped my message out into
the frozen hyper-tundra.
[reply]
Rocket, your words are worthy of this fine
e-publication. Sometimes it takes me a couple
of days to get all the material ready.
In case it's not obvious I try to publish the material just
as it was sumbitted. I do not correct spelling or grammer.
I will reformat it slightly to better fit on the page
of a person with a simple e-mail program. So it always helps
me if the lines are not too long and there is a blank line
between paragraphs.
Now On Line - Florida FF Calendar
=================================
The Florida State Free Flight Calendar in now on-line
on the calendar section of the SCAT Web site.
................
Roger Morrell
