SEN 2448 - World Cup reality Plus summary and suggestions then think about August in Canada

Table of Contents – SEN 2448


World Cup reality Plus summary and suggestions then think about August in Canada


  1. DT flyoffs and Sporting Code - Reality
  2. Summing it up
  3. 2nd round 4-minute max?
  4. DT flyoffs
  5. Canada Cup
  6. Huron Cup



DT flyoffs and Sporting Code - Reality


From: Per Findahl  


DT flyoffs and Sporting Code


Some comments about our rules and how we follow them. We must all understand that we have an organization based on volunteers. All of us involved in flying, organizing collecting points to the lists, we are all friends and as I said, volunteers. To think that Ian Kaynes sits in his home, getting the points from the contests flown, then reading the jury report and after deciding for himself that this contest should count, this one not…. It is not going to happen. No volunteer would take this job if it was like this. If we want organizers to get reprimanded for not following the rules, we must have a more professional head organization then we have now. We must have payed people sitting in some kind of board, not fliers, taking the final decisions in such matters.  And of course, the reprimands what will be given must be clearly stated in advance.  I guess if we had more people looking at us from outside, with different eyes, sponsors, media and so on, We would get more feedback on the mistakes we make during the years, violations of our rules. No we are all involved in the contests, and it is very difficult to see clear. I flew quite a lot of contests already this year, and I have seen already more then one occasion with violations of the Sporting Code. But, at the moment I agreed with the organizer. To get the most sporting result at the moment, the violation was needed, so I didn’t protest. If we had media cover as Football, I can see the headlines in the news….. Thinking as an organizer I can see the problem. You don’t want to have a split 35 people first place… You try to find a solution, and of course the most sporting one at the moment. It is not optimal to let people travel all over the world and then end the contest with a split first place if there is a chance to finish in a way that gives a fair result.


So what can we do ?  Well, we have so many examples that started exactly the same as the discussion now with the dt flyoffs.  And what happened then ?

My first example. The flyoffs at the world champs in France. We faced a very difficult situation, not because of organizers, but because of the existing rules and the weather. The flyoffs was too big, and it was impossible to find enough experienced timekeepers. So what could be done ? The organizer, as organizers do, tried to find a solution for this. They collected people from everywhere to get “2 heads” at least for each pole, to follow the Sporting Code as good as possible. But still it was bending of the rules, many of the timekeepers was not experienced.  Of course we could have followed the rules and stopped here, it was clear we didn’t have enough qualified timekeepers for a sporting result. But to say 60 in F1A at first place at the Wch is not optimal, I think you all agree on that. I got 2 timkeepers that timed a model for the first time in their lives…. My flight was low and just maxed, timekeepers didn’t see. And it was difficult to see, even for me as experienced timekeeper….  I was unlucky, and at the moment I didn’t protest. As an organizer at this moment I had done the same thing. But was it a sporting result ? Did they follow the Sporting Code ? Right or wrong ? As an organizer you want the best, you try to solve the problem the best you can, but in the heat of the moment maybe you don’t think about all outcomes and parameters, you bend the rules just a bit to get a result. Wrong or right ?


After the flyoffs in France we implemented the rule with the group flyoffs to help to solve the problem. It helped a lot to reduce people in flyoff-groups; it helped the organizer, and also gave a chance for good timekeepers, a fair result. Of course group flyoffs also have some cons, groups flying in different weather and so on. But clearly it was the better option if looking at what we had in France. We used this rule for a year or so, no big complain from fliers and/or organizers. Then we had a sent in proposal for removing this option with group flyoffs. We discussed it in the technical meeting at the plenary meeting before the voting. Most of us at the technical meeting agreed we don’t want to remove this option. Remember it was only an option in the rules ! But then something very strange happened, suddenly in the big meeting this matter was up on the floor. Usually when the technical meeting agrees on something, there is no voting. But now it happened, and in the big hall the voting removed this option for us. So now we are back on square one again regarding the problem to solve big flyoffs. After this I have seen on many occasions organizers struggle to solve flyoff situations as they are written in the Sporting Code. Using only one timekeeper and so on, this is not ok with the rules either. But what can we do ? Stop and not fly the flyoff ? 35 people sharing first place ?  As an organizer you will try to solve the problem and to get a winner. If we had more outside interests I think those would have said. Hang on now… Is it so clever to find a solution for a big problem, then try it for a year, then remove it again without any real evaluation ? But in a democratic volunteer organization, this can happen, as it did.


I have my second example how we sometimes behave rather strange when we have violations of the rules. Last autumn we had an incident that was discussed in a similar way as the dt flyoff situation is discussed now. We have an organizer that often violates the rules by flying too long maxtimes in the rounds. Over the years we have seen this several times, not many protests have been heard either from fliers and/or jury. And the contest I am referring to is one of the biggest in the autumn ! This contest is very often deciding the outcome of the world cup. Last year we had an incident when a flier used too long time to find thermal enough for a 7 min round flight. Of course it was not a nice thing from this flier to do, but in my opinion he is not the only one to blame for what happened. The main problem is that the organizer violated the rules flying so long maxtime. So what do we do then ? We invent a new rule to solve the problem instead of dealing with the real problem ! Its rather funny, but it happens in volunteer organizations when the problem is a bit difficult to deal with. We made a path around the problem instead of dealing with it.

So, again, in a volunteer organization as we have, it is sensitive and also difficult to reprimand an organizer. But as someone mentioned, if we want to be taken seriously we must improve in this area. Just see where we are now. We have like 60 contests in the world cup list. How many of those do you agree are flown 100% to our rules, and at the same time have the high standard we need to be taken seriously from other outside interests ? Maybe it is time again to think in the direction of an Super World Cup ? The idea has been around for some time. We try to pick out, lets say, the best 8 contests we know about. All 60 contests can of course bee still on the world cup list. But the 8 contests we pick out should be of the highest standards we know. They then give extra points in the world cup. If a win in a normal world cup is 500, then a win here gives lets say 600 points. The contests that are included in the Super World Cup should have all features we like to see, a good field, good timekeepers, on line scoring, media contact, super organization etc. Then we have good contests to recommend for media to visit, for sponsors to maybe put money in to, something we can be proud of showing to others. Every year we evaluate previous year and decide what contests that will be included in the Super World Cup next year. Then we could face the situation that other organizers for contests not in the Super World cup want to improve and get better status. This could be a positive spiral that in general would improve contests and organizers better following the rules. Of course we also here have a problem as a volunteer organization. Who will decide each year what contest will be given Super World Cup status ?

  As I mentioned earlier, as an organizer you want to get a sporting result. You try your best to solve the problem in the heat of the moment. Sometimes the rules are clear, but you still feel you must bend them a little to get a result. Is this ok or not ? Difficult to say.. But then we also have organizers that clearly don’t follow the rules, and this can be as simple as they don’t even know about them ???


To just say something about the dt flyoffs. I agree of course it is not a perfect ending of a contest. But as a frequent organizer I can see this as a solution in extreme cases. What is more fair ? To fly too far away so timekeepers cant see the models or have a dt when you can see the landing ? It is not clearly stated in our rules its ok, but also it is not clear that it is not ok. The CD and the jury can decide the maxtime depending on the conditions. If we agree on lets say 2 min maxtime. It is ok in our book. Then what is not clear is of course the continuing timing to the ground after dt, or checking afterwards the altimeters at dt. Or to go really to the bottom of the problem, what is a dt ? But I can’t see this solution of the problem as a bigger violation of the rules, then for example flying a flyoff with only one timekeeper. It is not a 100% solution, but it is what we can do at the moment to finish a contest in the most sporting way. I’m often organizing contests, and I made several times violations of the rules mentioned above. My main interests are of course the fliers and to get a sporting result. And to get a result sometimes I made dt flyoffs, I had also flyoffs with too few timekeepers…. Right or wrong ?

So the problem remains….   To teach organizers we must have a tougher feedback to organizers that violate the rules, to teach them right. But who will do this ? In a volunteer organization, with all of us also friends ? It is not going to happen in my opinion. Who will stand up and tell a friend organizer that sorry, your contest will not count in the world cup because you used only one timekeper in the flyoff, or you used a dt flyoff ?

But what we can do is of course to write the rules so they fit our way of flying better. There are always improvements that can be made. November 15…..And we can also try to tell organizers about the rules and remind them if they don’t follow them. That is all our responsibilities, we who fly the contests. I can see myself in the situation as an organizer that I can be a bit “blind” in some occasions, wanting a result too much, then perhaps bending the rules a bit too much. Then it is the jury responsibility, and also all contestants, to step in and advice the organizer. We all make mistakes, but we can help out all of us to minimize them if we come with good comments. And we must of course be clear in our invitations to announce “Local rules”, if we intend to fly our contest with some special rules not included in the Sporting Code. If we do this any flier can choose what contest he or she wants to fly. And in my opinion, the Super World Cup could maybe help us to see, and give examples, of how we want a good contest flown. Show good examples. What we talk about is not so clear as it is black or white, its often grey areas.


Summing it up


From: Pierre Chaussebourg



Many thanks to Sergei Cenny, Fred,Ian, Roger, John and others for their comments.

Let’s hope that we find all these ideas for finishing our competitions in a reasonable and fair way under firm proposals for the next Ciam agenda before the 15 November !

For protests, which is the only way to argue, one more time : read the book !

Roger, thank you for « Maître « ! I don’t need that : I am just a regular flyer with years of experience as competitor helper team manager jury member (60 times in world and continental champs) I enjoy our sport and I would like so much to see it in a good way for future before to give up.





2nd round 4-minute max?


From : Aram Schlosberg 

Currently, under the 5 rounds scheme, the maxes of the first and last rounds are 4-minutes. The last round typically has abundant thermals and very few clean flyers entering that round actually drop.


In contrast, the second round is probably the most difficult to max, after ground thermals and a possible inversion layer are depleted. The field has not yet warmed up and the second round can frequently have large pockets of dead or sinking air.


If the intent is to reduce the number of clean flyers at the end of the contest, it makes sense to transfer the 4-minute max from the last to the second round.


And if retrievals on the 4-minute maxes are an issue (particularly in places with foot retrievals) a fifteen minute break can be added after the first and second rounds.




DT flyoffs


From: David Ackery



DT flyoffs


There has been a lot of criticism,  but I don't see any  positive or useful

ideas put forward. Deliberately flying into a forest is not the correct

answer to this issue.


So in this situation I support John Carter, 1) for his sensible approach,

and measured response to some shrill critics who were not there on the day,

and 2) for his determination to work for the fliers and put them first,

rather than putting the needs of the fliers last.



best regards


   CANADA CUP 2018

                       WORLD CUP COMPETITION

                                                            August 11th. 2018

                                      Zander Sod farm, New Tecumseth, Ontario,




Categories:    F1A – F1B – F1C


Contest schedule: F1A – F1B – F1C               

August 11th.





Round 1.

  8.00 AM  -  9.00 AM




Round 2.

  9.00 AM  -  10.00 AM




Round 3.

 10.00 AM  - 11.00 PM




Round 4.

11.00 PM  -  12.00 PM




Round 5.

12.00 PM  -  13.00 PM




Round 6.

13.00 PM  -  14.00 PM




Round 7. 

14.00 PM  -  15.00 PM







Round 1 Max will be :                                        F1A 240 sec. 

                                                                       F1B 300 sec

                                                                       F1C 300 sec

All other rounds are 3 minute maxes.


Fly Offs:         18.00 PM on August 11th. 2018 based on weather conditions


Current FAI Sporting Codes Apply


Entry Fee:        $30.00 CAD / Event     Junior Entry Fee:     $5.00 CAD / Event



For Insurance purposes, non AMA or MAAC members will have to buy a

Temporary CAD $10.00 membership.

Sod Farm location:

GPS co-ordinates: 44.124309,-79.811856

6114-6746 12th Line

New Tecumseth, ON L0G 1A0, Canada ‎

Tottenham road and 12th side road are the main intersections

(The field is on 12th. side road, east of Tottenham road.)









                             ANGUS INN MOTEL                                               

                             168 Mill Street                                                      

                             Angus, Ontario

                             Tel: (705) 424-7777  Fax: (705) 424-9551


                             BORDEN INN                                                      

                             174 Mill Street                                                       

                             Angus, Ontario

                             Tel: (705) 424-6362


                             RED PINE                                                             

                             497 Victoria Street East                                          

                             Alliston, Ontario

                             Tel: (705) 435-4381  Fax: (705) 435-2265

                             E-Mail: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.




            Leslie Farkas

            21 Misty Moor Drive

            Richmond Hill, Ontario

            Canada    L4C 6P9

            Tel: (905) 886-6959  Fax:  (905) 886-3025

            E-Mail : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.




The Toronto Free Flight Group

Presents the 18th Annual

Huron Cup

An Americas and World Cup FF Competition


Dates:             Sunday, August 12th  2018

Place:             Zander Sod farm, New Tecumseth, Ontario, Canada (aprox 1 hr, 15 minutes North of Toronto)

Events:           F1A, F1B, F1C, F1Q, F1G, F1H, F1J/P

Entry Fees:    $25.00 for F1A, F1B, F1C $10.00 for F1G, F1H, F1J/P

Juniors Free all events!


CD:                  Tony Mathews

11233 Hwy 118, PO Box 85, West Guilford, ON K0M2S0 Cell: +1 705-854-0698

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.


SundayAugust 12th

F1A/B/C/Q      Round 1          8:00 am – 9:00 am                              3 minute maxes

                        Round 2          9:00 am – 10:00 am                            4 minutes for round 1 & 4

                        Round 3          10:00 am – 11:00 pm                          (weather permitting)

                        Round 4          11:00 pm – 12:00 pm

                        Round 5          12:00 pm – 1:00 pm


F1A/B/C/Q      Fly-offs           7:00 pm (weather permitting)

F1G/H/J/P       Round 1          1:00 pm - 2:00 pm

                        Round 2          2:00 pm - 3:00 pm                               2 minute maxes

                        Round 3          3:00 pm – 4:00 pm     

                        Round 4          4:00 pm – 5:00 pm

                        Round 5          5:00 pm – 6:00 pm


F1G/H/J/P       Fly-offs           8:00 pm (weather permitting)




Map showing entry to field see 2nd page

(Sunrise for august 12th – 6:20 am Sunset - 20:27 pm)

Test flying possible for Friday July 19th at sod farm call for details

Sod farm rules:

1)     Do not drive or park on the grass ever!!

2)     Access is in the area labeled A on the map below

3)     No motorcycles or motorized vehicles of any kind allowed on the grass

4)     No tents, sunshades, tables, or Bar B Q’s allowed on the grass

5)     Do not leave any garbage (including rubber motors) on the grass!

6)     Parking is available talk to CD


Sod Farm location:

GPS co-ordinates: 44.124309,-79.811856

6114-6746 12th Line

New Tecumseth, ON L0G 1A0, Canada ‎


Tottenham road and 12th side road are the main intersections.