SEN 1195 - 19 March 2008

Table of Contents - SEN 1195

  1. Was Pandora's Box Electronic ...
  2. Scrapping the 20 second rule
  3. I can't believe they agree...
  4. Looking for the SailWing %0
  5. Vintage F1A's ready in the Attic
  6. Gill Morris Kerswap Thanks
  7. F1Q section
  8. Ross on Queue
  9. Cuban Q Ideas
  10. Gentlemen Charge your Batteries
  11. Look at the NFFS Forum

Was Pandora's Box Electronic and did it have a Radio ?
From: Jim Parker

Why did I open the RDT Pandora's box?
I wrote a short, side line question on the NFFs forum contrasting my experience with re-latching tow hooks and the M&K impulse hook. This simple question was, "Is extending a 3 minute set DT time to 5 minute FO flight via RDT was legal?" See the NFFs formum for this discussion.
I was surprised that there is a vocal group against the use of RDT in general and even more surprised that many feel that using RDT to get a less than 20 second attempt is "Un-sportsmanlike". Even as my good buddy, Ken Bauer stated in the last SEN,
 "It would be nice if the rule makers could fix the current loophole in the FAI rules that leaves it perfectly legal to use the RDT to obtain an attempt as Jim did. Why can't the rule be fixed before a protest happens? Why does the burden of this loophole have to fall upon the model flyers?"  [My editorial: I think Ken is confusing the RDT to get an attempt which by his account is perfectly legal  and therefore unreasonable to protest with a previous SEN message quoting Ian Kanes to say he was waiting for someone to protest  a flyer using a model with “trimmable RC function”.]

Surely with all the discussion since 2001 and the enactment of the "Stamov DT" rule (no attempt if the flight is terminated by DT) to the recent rule changes allowing RDT in F1A and B and removing of the "Stamov DT" rule, the rule makers understood that RDT could and therefore  it is reasonable to believe it would be used to achieve an attempt. There is no "loop hold". I believe that Ken's fear is that RDT would be rescinded.
I do hope Ken's fears are unwarranted and the FAI rule makers allow RDT a fair chance. It is just the next evolution of our sport. If SEN had been around when the first auto rudder / stab was used, the same fearful cries would be heard "It's not free flight-- the definition of free is NO CONTROL-----". 
We have developed a reasonable set of rules that still provides a huge gap between FF and RC. The current rules deal with this new technical development that holds hope for extending the life span of this sport.
If this argument is not sufficient, I would plead the trouble you have is not with RDT, it is with the Attempt rule in general.
My understanding is the 20 second Attempt rule is rooted in the earliest day of our sport when  Wakefields were ROG and it was considered gentlemanly to give the competitor another chance if the model did not get off the ground.  Times have changed. I draw from Peter Allnutt, and point out the ludicrous logic of the 20 second attempt rule. Flyer A properly prepares, picks good air, makes a good launch but the air peters out and lands at 179 seconds.  Flyer B forgets to put the stab down from DT position and launches, does a loop into the ground in 19 seconds.  The flyer that screwed up gets awarded with an attempt and the Flyer that just missed by one second gets to time the Flyer A in the flyoff.  Seems it is OK for the  fickle finger of fate to give you an attempt but  your own finger on the RDT transmitter button is evil.
So if this rule as out lived its usefulness the obvious solution is to drop it all together right?  This logical was reality around 1988 when the attempt rules was eliminated.  I had this same discussion with Ian Kaynes in 2001 at the Lost Hills WC opening banquet with regard to the then recently enacted "Stamov DT" rule. He agreed with the logic of eliminating the Attempt rule but pointed out that he and the other rule makers barely escaped with their lives and so re-stated the historic  20 second attempt rule.
So what to do with our love-hate affair with the Attempt rule? I offer the following: Simply change it to the 5 second Attempt rule. This would in all practical aspects eliminate RDT salvation and other non-natural acts such as running after and jumping to stop an errant model. Only the REALLY grievious mistakes will be awarded with an attempt.
Thermals, peace and adherence to the rules,   Jim Parker

Scrapping the 20 secs rule
From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Good afternoon,

I read with interest the note of Martin Gregorie about the problem posed by radio DT and 20 sec.s rule, and using the rule in a, may be, unethical way.

He suggests scrapping the 20 sec.s rule, nobody would be more happy than me about this solution.

This rule was already put in the bin many years ago, only to be resurrected by an high enough number of countries who succeeded in reinstating it at the CIAM technical meeting.

Just because of this "new use" of the rule together with radio DT, I put again on the table the idea to scrap it in the last CIAM meeting, with the support of some other members, but the opposition of some more.

I also suggested as an alternative to change the rule to a time down to 10 or less seconds (I would like 5 sec.s), because this would still give a way to correct mayor dramas, but make "smart" use of the rule virtually impossible, this also was considered not interesting.

Are there any flyers who could be interested in discussing the 20 sec.s rule and/or any adaptation of it ?

PS:  this note, if published, risks to come rather close to the 1st of April, but it's not an "April fool" message (Pesce d'Aprile or Poisson d'Avril for other readers).

Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Sincères salutations

Anselmo Zeri

Can't believe it !

Jim and Amselmo agree - will they together stop Ian from getting lynched ? - maybe with some help from Henning?

Looking for the Sailwing 50

From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Does anyone know where to get a  building plan of the Sailwing 50 by Frank Zaic which appeared in his 51/52 Year Book. According to the text in this book, there was also a kit available when the design was made in the late 40s just after the war. Maybe someone has one in the loft ot attic?Any help would be appreciated

Mike S

Vintage F1A's ready in the attic

From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Hello Hector
Unlike the vintage FAI power models, of which I have NONE left, except the bones of a 8 year campaign Hustler which sported initially an Enya diesel, and then a Super Tiger diesel, I have 5 vintage A-2 models ready to fly at a moments notice.
4 of these are models were built in the late 1960s and early 1970s by Hugh Langevin, 4 time USA A-2 team member during that period, placing 5th and 13th in his best World Champs.  I have the 5th and 13th place models in my arsenal after rebuilding them.  Please note that this is the Osprey series of which the Buntbone is a very close descendant!  The 13th place model flew 12 of 14 maxes at the Maxmen 2004 contest flying in the vintage spirit with several mile high thermaling flights.
So anytime you want to come to our Minneapolis contests on a beautiful 1 1/2 mile square sod farm, let me know, and we can fly vintage A-2.
Other than that you will have to schedule this event at either Maxmen(Isaacson) or Sierra Cup(Livotto) so that I can compete when I am out there.  Twice a year to Lost Hills keeps my model budget stressed as it is.
Good luck with this event, it is more fun than flying circle tow!  (Please don't let anyone know that you actually witnessed my perfect circle tow flight, they won't believe you anyhow!)
Dave Edmonson
Secretary and Newsletter editor of the Minneapolis Model Aero Club, established 1938
member since 1955.
PS:  Someone lost a Comet Zipper at the 1948 Nationals here in Monticello, Minnesota.  If you can identify the engine on it and the color of the model, I can hook you up with the finder.  No name on the model.  Just got the call from the finder 3 weeks ago.  Now would someone call me up with info on all of my lost models!

Gil Morris Kerswap Thanks

Thanks to all that replied with contact details for Gil. I have now been in
touch and the relevant info has crossed the Pond.


Tony Shepherd

F1Q Section

Ross on Queue
From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Note On Electric FF:

I am just as confused as you about motor and model size. I have not pursued a solution for myself (to many other things on my plate). My interest is in converting an existing F1J or F1C to electric. I have done nothing to pursue my idea, but I have some suggestions.

I was editor of the 2001 sympo which featured three articles on electrics - indoor, scale, and outdoor. The outdoor article by Charles Groth sets up a systematic scheme for designing a model around the power plant, i.e. batteries and motor. It is a really good article that should help you develop a plan of action.

Rogers comment about the technology jump is surely true, however it is our own fault that this gap still exists. Electiric free flight models are sold at Walmart for goodness sake. And the R/C guys have understood electrics very well for nearly two decades. They know motor sizes like we know engine sizes - almost intuitively. If we get friendly with some of these guys we might get the answers we need to quickly shortcut the techno-gap. Maybe an R/C electric guru could publish an article in the Sympo or the Digest. (Maybe we could read the R/C electric columns in the magazines too.) Some commercial web sites give thrust data on motors, that we could compare to similar data on well known gas engines. A few hours of research on the web could yield a table comparing motors to engines.

Who will do it is the question.


Cuban Q Ideas
From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.


Hi  . ROGER and friends

I was a F1C flyer , (VERBITSKY¨S PUPIL)(I AM CUBAN ,LIVING IN Barcelona)and now  I practic F5J electric RC glider (national formula same as f1c but RC)

My  OWN DESIGN ""models are all composites (all parts ) made by my self ,  Dbox , carbon booms , nose etc

In this moment my models  in 32 seconds  climb 250-270 meters or plus"" and gliding more than 6 min (easy)

The span  , 2230 mm and weight 690 grams , all included  (rc devices battery,ready to fly)



The prop is  folding Aeronaut CAM CARBON 14x9 (in 6:1) and 14x8(in 5:1) the BATERY IS LiPo 2s 1000 mamp(7.4 V) or NiCd 1200 ma mp 6 elements(8.4V) the comsum is abouth

16 AMP AND PULL 700 -800 GRAMS

 SOMETIMES  I USE  NEUMOTOR  1105/3y (3500 rpm/v )+6:1 +14X10 AND PULL 900-1000 GRAMS (17-18 AMP)

I use a Z hub made in  CNC (BY ME)

The airfoil is a mix of selig 4083 and 3021 7.5% + FLAPS , have good perfomance,  in tail (drela Ht 18) The area is

38 dm square in wings and tail 3.6 dm2

Now Iam making a folding I hope good results too

The last year my model was the champion (invict in 5 contest) in BARCELONA province  ,champion OF Asturias AND 2nd in SPAIN NATIONAL

I think that this parameters culd help  the FF ELECTRIC MODELS

best regards

manolo ( EX cuban F1C TEAM)

Gentlemen Charge your Batteries 

from: Faust Parker <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

F1Q will be flown at the Spring Cup on Sunday April 27 with the mini events. Unfortunately there will be no awards this year, but it will count toward Americas Cup points. We will see how it goes and may include it in all of our contests later in the year.

Gentlemen, charge your batteries!



Look at the NFFS Forum

from: rich ivers Jr. <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

Hello Ed Mate, Look at NFFS forum under pending AMA electric B record. You will see the details of my F1Q. The model climbs with the same vigor as a nostalgia model with a hot .15

Roger Morrell