SEN 692 - 16 Apr 2002
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SCAT Electronic News 16 April 2002 issue 692
Table of Contents
=================
Cylonic Thanks - The Alien
Reminising
PT 19 Flight model engine
Texas Cloud Climbers Annual FF Champs - Fedor
Potent Puppy - Simpkins
Past Vol Libres - Segrave
SEN Articles
Free Flight Contests in the Northeast - Barron
Ross Jahnke's Marketing ideas for FF - Blackam
CIAM Meeting again - Segrave
Re: Juniors - Thomson
FIP - Keck
Re: Waterproof micro switches - Gregorie
A chance to shoot the breeze face to face aka NOTICE: SPECIAL MEETING - Sweeptte Lee
SO Question - Brokenspar
Free flight dying? - Clemens
Thanks
Cylonic Thanks
==============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Just a little Thank You, to those responding to my Cyclon page request.
Bob
Reminising
==========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Bill that was the Glenview Nats. I lost one over the fence too with my pr=
ized Oliver Tiger.
Ed Mate
PT 19 Flight model engine
=========================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I have found a PT 19 Flight model engine made by L.M Cox MFG Co. of =
Santa Anna California 92705
Can you give me any information about this company. I assume the model =
plane is about 30 years old
Thanking you in anticipation
Darryl
14/04/02
Texas Cloud Climbers Annual FF Champs
=====================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The Texas Cloud Climbers 55th Annual Regional FF Championship America's Cup &
National Cup Challenge will be held June 29-30, 2002, at Beaumont Ranch in
Grandview, Texas.
Saturday events: F1A, F1B, F1C, 1/2A gas, B gas, P-30, Catapult Glider, C/D
Classic gas, A Nos gas, Small Field Combo (CO2, Electric, .020 Replica,
Payload - Combined)
Sunday events: F1G, F1H, F1J, A gas, Mulvihill, HL Glider, A/B Classic gas,
1/2A Nos gas, Junior Combo (Rubber, Gas, Glider, Electric, CO2 - Combined for
Jrs only)
FAC P-Nut, Rubber Scale, Power Scale, Electric Replica flown either day
For more info contact contest director Mike Fedor tel:(817) 277-1829 e-mail
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Thanks
Mike Fedor
Potent Puppy
============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
In the last few episodes of SEN, rules for the new F1P class have been
pretty well defined. Since some of the issues have not been stated in the
rules, it is understood that the use of composites, folders, and nitro fuels
would also be legal as is the use of an auto rudder to set the glide.
This new FAI class is certainly a nice challenge to the power flyer. With a
projected span of 1.5 meters (59.065 inches) and a minimum wing area of 403
square inches it will entail a wing with a wider chord. This should make the
wing torsionally stiffer and also allow for the use of two main spars,
either carbon capped I-beams, or small box spars. An ample sized main box
beam could also be used.
With a minimum weight of 250 grams (8.82 ounces), wing loading for such a
model would be 3.15 ounces/square foot. This is based on the minimum wing
area of 403 square inches, a very light wing loading for a power model. It
should produce a very flat floating glide. It has always been an objective
to keep wing loading under 4 ounces for a good glide.
To build a 250 gram model, careful selection of components and materials are
necessary. It shouldn't be too difficult for any serious builder for a model
of this size. A preliminary target weight estimate for a 250 gram model
would be as follows:
Fuselage (all up)...155 grams
Wing......................80 grams
Stab.......................15 grams.
Even a slightly overweight model would not deter it's performance. With a
good 1 cc engine turning in the vicinity of 30K this should be a very good
"Potent Puppy" performer. With a 10 second engine run, it should get as
high, or higher, than the best performing geared F1C. With a 3 minute max,
in good air, one could expect it to take another minute or more to the
ground. It certainly is not a junior's toy. Just make sure the transmitter
is working and be prepared for the chase.
Don Simpkins
Past Vol Libres
===============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Sometime between VL ll0 and about 120 was published an article entitle,
"What's wrong with Free flight?". I have seemed to have left my copy back in
France and is thus unaccessable. Could someone therefore access this article
and send it to Roger Morell at SEN for publication? Thank you in advance
Mike S
SEN Articles
============
a couple of comments. In SEN we do not publish anything that we
do not get in machine readable form. We do not publish scanned
text article in image format, rather than text. I do not
re-enter any material that is send to me in hard copy.
We also do not publish copyrighted material - I assume that in
this case seeing Mike wrote the artcile he holds the copyright.
I do not publish what I take to be personal correspondence to me and
in particular item that people explicitly ask me not to publish.
I am very busy and eventhough I have some automation to help prepare SEM
it still takes a lot of time. This is why I need articles and in particular
contest announcements to be in plain text without any special formatting.
There are some messages that need quite a lot of manual work
to get them into shape, this delays their publication.
It is possible they may even be forgotten.
SEN is published when I get around to, this means that if I get something
that has imformation for the up coming weekend it might not get out time.
I do try and be aware of this but sometimes just cannot get SEN
sent out. So please take care to send me information im plently of time.
Finally be aware that we do publish material that we do not agree with
as to give rise to a broad spectrum of information and discussion.
This means that all articles are the opinion of author, not me
or the members of SCAT.
We do however reserve the right not to publish an article that we
recieve.
Free Flight Contests in the Northeast
=====================================
Andrew Barron
Fellow Free Flight Fliers:
Here is a list of upcoming contests in New York, New England,
and certain other locations, for broad distribution. It is taken
(with some corrections) from Art Ellis' contest list that he compiles for
the Wilber and Orville Society (of young builders and fliers here in
Connecticut).
Some of you from both near and afar may be especially interested
in some of the America's Cup and National Cup contests. This spring they
include the EAST COAST FREE FLIGHT CHAMPIONSHIPS, April 27-28, Ingleside,
Maryland, directed by Joe Wagner (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., 410-778-3933) and
Tom Kerr (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., 410-778-4939) and the SKYSCRAPERS CHALLENGE,
May 25-26, Wawayanda, New York, directed by Dave Acton (914-948-4234) and
myself (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., 203-248-5386). While for the fall, here
we have the SKYSCRAPERS ANNUAL, October 19-20, Wawayanda, New York (Acton
and Barron, CDs). Moreover, the HURON CUP, July 13-14, CFB Borden,
Ontario, Canada directed by Jerry McGlashan (905-468-1829) and the EMPIRE
STATE FF CHAMPS, August 17-18, Geneseo, NY, while these two meets
are farther away from many of us, they are well worth the trip, as are
other contests at fine sites around the country (see e.g. the America's
Cup calendar being posted at aeromodel.com).
For the local flyers, note that the first meet, the April 13 Skyscrapers
Monthly is this weekend at Wawayanda, NY (Barron Field), from 9am to 3pm.
For each of the monthly meets the events are: (F1A,F1B,F1C combined),
(F1G,F1J,F1H combined), HLG, Catapult, P-30, PeeWee-30, ABC-Classic Power,
1/2A-Nostalgia Gas, and (Classic Rubber, Classic Wakefield combined).
At the monthlies, the FAI events are flown without rounds with 2 minute
max. They are sanctioned events and hence eligible for the qualification
phase of the U.S. team selection. If you need directions to the field
let me know (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it., 203-248-5386).
For the Eastern U.S. Free Flight Champs, April 27-28, in Ingleside,
Maryland, Co-director Joe Wagner and his wife Lydia have asked me to
spread the word that after the flying on Saturday, they are hosting
a buffet supper with everyone invited. Contact them (410-778-3933
or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.) by April 15 if you would like to attend. Also
Joe has a nice contest announcement with detailed schedule, map, and
accomodation list that he can send you. (Alan Abriss at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
has an electronic version of the EUSFFC announcement that he can sent
you, but be warned that getting it from Alan via email uses about a
Megabyte). I note that in accordance with the pattern in recent
years they have F1B, F1C, and F1H in rounds starting saturday morning
(9am), F1A, F1G, and F1J in rounds starting sunday morning (8am), plus a
full slate of AMA, Nostalgia, and FAC events.
Details concerning the schedule for the Skyscraper Challenge on
Saturday and Sunday of Memorial Day Weekend, May 25-26, in Wawayanda,
NY, will be emailed to you shortly.
April 13: Brooklyn Skyscrapers Monthly, Wawayanda, NY
April 27&28: East Coast Free Flight Championships, Maryland
May 5: NEWG, Charleston, NH
May 11: Brooklyn Skyscrapers Monthly, Wawayanda, NY
May 25&26: BROOKLYN SKYSCRAPERS CHALLENGE, Wawayanda, NY
June 2: Society of Antique Models, Rocky Hill, CT
June 8: Brooklyn Skyscrapers Monthly, Wawayanda, NY
June 9: Glastonbury Modelers Spring Fling, Durham, CT
June 23: NEWG, Falmouth, MA
June 30: Society of Antique Models, Rocky Hill, CT
July 13: Brooklyn Skyscrapers Monthly, Wawayanda, NY
July 28: Society of Antique Models, Rocky Hill, CT
Aug. 5-9: National Championships, Muncie, IN
Aug. 10: Brooklyn Skyscrapers Monthly, Wawayanda, NY
Aug. 11: NEWG, Falmouth, MA
Aug. 17&18: Empire State Free Flight Championships, Geneseo, NY
Aug. 24&25: Society of Antique Models, Rocky Hill, CT
Sept. 14: Brooklyn Skyscrapers Monthly, Wawayanda, NY
Sept. 15: Glastonbury Modelers, Durham, CT
Sept. 15: NEWG, Falmouth, MA
Oct. 12: Brooklyn Skyscrapers Monthly, Wawayanda, NY
Oct. 13: NEWG, Charleston, NH
Oct. 20: NEWG, Falmouth, MA
Oct. 19 & 20: BROOKLYN SKYSCRAPERS ANNUAL, Wawayanda, NY
Nov. 17: Glastonbury Modelers, Durham, CT
In three email lists of free flight fliers (regional, nonregional and
FAI fliers) I now have perhaps a thousand recepients. There is some
overlap in the lists, so for a general distribution like this you might
receive more than one copy (my apology). If you do not want to be
informed of either our International Class events (such as the Annual, the
Challenge, and the EUSFFC) or regional events, please let me know and I
will remove you from the list.
Last year I included all recepients in the To: list of the email
header. But when it exceeded 500 free flight fliers, some of the mail
handlers (such as aol) automatically rejected it, causing the need to
resend separately. So now the entire list is sent by bcc (blind cc).
Many free flight fliers have expressed to me that they find the list
useful in contacting friends in the hobby. In the next general
distribution I intend to provide my updated list at the bottom of the
message. If you do not wish to have your address shown in that way
let me know and I will omit it.
It looks like we will have good weather this weekend. Hope to see
many of you downwind.
Thermals,
Andrew
Andrew Barron
5 Oliver Drive
North Haven, CT 06473
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Office 203-432-0634
Dept. 203-432-0666 (for leaving messages)
Fax 203-432-0633
Home 203-248-5386 (may call)
Ross Jahnke's Marketing ideas for FF
====================================
Richard Blackam
Man, at last someone who understands the problem!! For years I've been
alienating fellow modelling beaurocrats with my harping on this very
topic.
Everything Ross says is right on the money. FF will disappear unless it's
profile is raised and in the modern age that means serious marketing in
the mass media which of course takes money.
The other point that I always make is that the immediate potential FF'er
will more likely come from a very specific demographic. That demographic
does not include the average 0-20 year old (I know this is not a
politiically correct statement). The best target range for us is mid-20's
to mid 30's.
FF has everything going for it to appeal to many young people in the mid
20's to mid 30's age range for the following reasons:
people in that age group:
have generally finished their major studies
have generally settled into a stable work/career situation
have a stable family/marriage/relationship structure
have gotten past the girlfriend/boyfriend emotional rollercoaster
have their own transport
have some disposable income
are likely to be interested in a healthy lifestyle or fitness sports
etc
FF can offer:
fun
technical interest
fitness
'communion with nature'
competitive achievement
a creative outlet
social interaction and meeting people from many different walks of
life/cultures
travel
stimulation of the old grey matter
relatively cheap (ever cost a go kart setup?)
etc, etc, etc
People in the demographic mentioned above are already getting into
technical sports in droves. Sports such as motorcross, triathlon,
equestrian, karting, orienteering, hang gliding etc etc. The only reason
some of them don't choose FF is they don't know it exists. Period. They
think model airplanes is radio control and they think that RC is toys
(which in the main it is). FF is a whole different ballgame from RC and
we need to push that line.
In the past I've often said that if we want to add people in FF we just
have to treat it as a numbers game. If you explain FF to 100 people,
maybe 10 will be mildly interested and maybe only 1 will actually give it
a try (maybe only 0.1). If you want to get a whole bunch more people in
the sport then you better explain it to many thousands or you're wasting
your time. Enter mass marketing...
The funny thing is, FF was mass marketed in the past very succesfully
(but kind of by proxy). That was in the golden years of aviation, pre and
post war when every kid was fascinated by flight and wanted to have a
model airplane. The 'mass marketing' was the general public's fascination
with flight. Those days have gone. Now it's up to our organisations to
pick up the baton.
Richard
CIAM Meeting again
==================
Mike Segrave
Roger,
there are many ways to raise funds for projects if people would just open
their eyes! There are professional fundraisers all over the place who will
raise monies for any project that you name, preferably in the larger(VERY)
category. I found this out when I was trying to find funds to send out
International to the World Champs. I thus contacted such a group and they
were very interested, but when I mentioned that I only needed about 5,000
Candian dollars they lost interest! There must be other means of raising
money inaddition to this. It only needs some work by ythe Public Relations
Department of the CIAM. Although we as modellers are interested in the
future, it is the CIAM who are ultimately responsible. As my father used to
say ,"If you want a pproblem solved, go to the top,the President,not the
office boy". Saying that the CIAM has no or little money can thus be seen as
a red herring which obscures reality. Whhat we need is an analysis by a
research company who will then come up with some reccommendations which are
then takken in hand by the PR and Advertising Department to produce the
desired result. Is that so very difficult????
Note that I brought to the attention of SEN readers what the US delegate did
in Lausanne in case thety were unaware of this,IN THE INTEREST OF A MORE
TRANSPARENT VIEW OF THE GOINGS ON THERE. Sincehe was faced with practically
a FAIt accompli ON THE SPOT, he had no chance to gather a view of the
American modellers. In addition , as a Canadian, I view myself as a North
American and thus not an Englishman as IMPLIED in the comment. Regards Mike
S
[I was merely pointing out that you were not an AMA member -
so what our delegation did with respect to the people it
represented was not really your concern and that
US aeromodelling politics is complicated enough with out having
a foreign 'agent provocatuer' stirring things up.]
Re: Juniors
============
Thomson
I watch the on-going debate on the future of free-flight and the absence of
juniors with a feeling that the underlying facts are largely ignored.
If you look back to the heyday of free-flight (and control-line), the whole
system was a viable economic business supporting a mass activity. Each town
had High Street model shops (often combined with Sports Shops), selling
practical commercial kits and accessories, simple engines were readily
available, commercial model flying magazines were sold on every news-stand,
flying clubs existed in schools and towns and flying took place in public
e.g. parks and playing fields. A lot of people tried it and a small number
stayed with it.
That whole structure has dissolved over the passage of time, sad but
unavoidable, and will not be resurrected. It was the presence of that
system which enabled me, and I suppose most others, originally to join the
activity, almost without a conscious decision to do so.
I suspect the only saviour of free-flight in the long term is if a new
generation invents a new version of the game, which leads to the growth of
a new infrastructure.
Lets go out and fly more, while we can.
Don Thomson
FIP
===
Ed Keck
I think every one wants to talk the talk but few,if any,
want to walk the walk. The rules as written will result
in a very high perforance model.On 10 sec it will get
very high, will do 3 min. easy and will come very slow
in strong lift.I suggest 8 sec run 2 min. max. Reduce
FIJ to 6 sec. run and let FIP and FIJ fly together ,same
rounds etc.A good place to try this would be our Muncie
nats this summer.Iwould be tempted to build a simple
carbon model if I was sure the rules wont change and we
can try them at Muncie per above.Any intrest anyone?We
will have a hard time keeping them on the field at 6 and
8 sec. runs. They all go off the field in the flyoffs on
7 sec.ask Gutai? A looooooong way.EDKECK
Re: Waterproof micro switches
=============================
Martin Gregorie
> During this winter I've struggled with humidity problems in my digital
> F1H timer (the snow melts and water creeps everywhere). Just recently
> some symptoms indiceted that the problem is most likely to occur in
> the micro switches that sence the towhook position. Thus my question
> is obvious: where to get switches that are water-proof? I'd prefer
> microswithes over e.g. reed switches as the latter would need some
> modifications to my hook setup...
>
Several years ago I had similar problems with the microswitch on one
of my Koster F1A timers. The switch that gave problems was a gold-
plated cross-point type, but rainwater still contaminated the
contacts enough to make the timer unreliable. As the timer draws 80
uA the current through the microswitch must be very small indeed.
Anyway, the initial answer was a 'semi-sealed' sub-minature Honeywell
SM series part (SM-24 IIRC). This has a showerproof gasket round the
operating button as well as gold plated crosspoint contacts. I've
used this type ever since without problems.
More recently, Chris Edge and I needed some more but could not get
them from the original supplier. Instead, we found an even smaller
sealed unit, the Radio Spares no 197-7484. This has a built in
operating lever and sealed-in leads. I haven't needed to build a hook
mount since getting these switches so can't comment on using them.
Martin
A chance to shoot the breeze face to face aka NOTICE: SPECIAL MEETING
======================================================================
Sweepttee Lee
To all FAI Flyers and members of SCAT:
In conjunction with the Lost Hills FAI Challenge on May 4th & 5th, SCAT
would like to inform you of a planned meeting. This meeting is for you
to voice your opinion on things related to FAI FF. Come and join our
effort to promote our common interest and goals for the future of the F1
Class.
The meeting will take be held on Saturday, May 4, 2002, 7:30pm at
DENNY'S Lost Hills Banquet room.
Some will have dinner there, though it is not required.
We look forward to seeing you and hope you bring an interested guest
with you.
RSVP no later than 4-30-2002 to:
PIERRE BRUN
818-989-4970
e-mail: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
SO Question
===========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
As to " Powered by a single loop rubber motor ( which may include one
knot ) and not to exceed 2 grams.
elsewhere: Rubber motor will be massed separately and must not have a
mass of less than 2 grams.
The rubber motor may have one knot.
more, elsewhere...
O-rings and lubrucating the rubber band is OK. However.
the O-rings and the lubrication
will be included in the mass of the motor.
( now, it's a rubber band ! )
Now, ( elsewhere...) -
We have noticed, when stripping I/8th inch Tan II to various sizes from
.060 to .096, for example,
that an interesting byproduct is a colllection of very thin Tan II
strips.
We can make motors from these thin strips by weighing out 2 grams,
adding one knot,
and stranding the loop to fit the hook to hook distance, usually six
strands fits.
( The O ring bit is a little more complicated. Gotta do that before the
knot and the lube. )
Looking at the definitions, and the use of the terms: " rubber band,
single loop, rubber motor
. ..may have one knot ", I am not sure that......
a single loop of rubber, stranded ( with O ring included during the
stranding ) to make a six stranded motor
( comprising three loops ), with only one knot, - added after stranding
through the O ring (( Rings ? )) but before
tying that single knot and applying lubricant. ( ! )....
........would pass.
Winding these six strand motors is very interesting. Groups nicely,
knots evenly, seems to deliver torque
quite well. Fits the hook neatly, Probably wont break all at
once....it's different.
Ah, there's the rub !
Brokenspar needs guidance in the politics of SO competition..
Free flight dying?
==================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
John Barker certainly gave us all old timers a good reason to go on
living when, in his message regarding the lack of juniors in free
flight, he told us:
"Free Flight will die with our generation. Accept that and let us make
the best of what is left."
>From where I stand, I believe Mr. Barker is dead wrong, and I for one
have no intention of accepting his dire prediction. To paraphrase Mark
Twain, the reports of the death of free flight have been greatly
exaggerated. We've been hearing them for years. And I believe his
assessment of the junior situation is wrong as well.
True, there is no flood of juniors entering free flight. But, at least
since WWII, when has there ever been? I don't think so. Most of our
newcomers are adults, some younger, some older.
But there are in the U.S., thanks to the Wright Stuff indoor rubber
event that's part of the nationwide Science Olympiad program, a new
generation of junior fliers is coming into our hobby. Not a lot, mind
you, but they are there. Tens of thousands of middle and high school
students are flying rubber-powered Wright Stuff duration models, most of
whom had never heard of, much less seen, such craft before. A small
percentage of these students are morphing into budding AMA indoor
fliers, and hopefully some will give outdoor flying a try as well. The
important thing is that these students, boys and girls, have been given
an introduction to free flight building and flying. Some will continue
on, as many of us did many decades ago after our own special
introductions to the hobby.
As for free flight dying with our generation, someone will have to show
me some hard evidence that this is happening. Perhaps it is in the U.K.
But I don't see that happening here. When we talk about the "golden age
of free flight," the 1930's and 40's are assumed to come under that
title. But in many ways I believe right now is the golden age of free
flight. Despite problems such as diminishing flying sites, there seem to
me to be more outdoor contests than ever. Nearly 200 fliers will gather
at Geneseo, NY, for the biennial FAC Nationals. We had over 60
competitors at our annual Empire State FF Championships last August and
expect even more this year. Our annual indoor meet at the Buffalo Bills
fieldhouse attracts over 50 contestants, and we expect a larger turnout
this September when we go to a two-day format. Certainly these are not
staggering numbers, but they are growing, not diminishing.
Today's engines and rubber are the best ever. New kits, many featuring
time-saving laser cutting, are introduced almost monthly, and the
popularity of old time power and rubber designs continues unabated. The
list of useful accessories and materials, such as the Gizmo Geezer
free-wheeling unit and the various synthetic covering products, grows
larger each year. Are these the symptoms of a hobby destined to
disappear in a matter of a few years? I don't think so.
I just turned 70, and have been involved with modeling, off and on,
since 1941 or so. Based on what I'm seeing these days, I'm not losing
any sleep worrying about my passing away with free flight expiring at my
side. It will endure long after "our generation" is gone. Somehow, I
believe most of you reading this will agree with me.
Bob Clemens
Rochester, NY
President, Western New York Free Flight Society
Thanks
======
Thanks to Brokenspar for his donation in support of SEN
...................
Roger Morrell
