SCAT Electronic News 22 November 2001 issue 646 Thanksgiving day
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SCAT Electronic News 22 November 2001 issue 646 Thanksgiving day
Table of Contents
=================
Draft FAI calendar - Kaynes et al
Wet airfoils - Andresen and Waterman
Tail Feathers - Brokenspar
Puszta Cup, European Championship 2002 - Salzer at al
Reply to F1C and ground effects - Cowley
Southwest Regionals 2002 - Brocks
More wooden F1C
Is that your Swan over there or mine ? - Edge
In reply to Bernard Scott. - Blackam
Re: all Balsa F1C - Salzer
More Scott Comments - Helmick
2002 SWR Contest Information - Nystdet
Draft FAI calendar
=================
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Roger
The FAI calendar will be finalised at the CIAM Bureau meeting next week.
They have just issued the draft calendar for internal CIAM revue. This is
not something for general release but I am concerned that there may be so me
competitions missing (e.g. USA and Canada events) and so I am sending you a
list of the events currently proposed for the 2002 FF World Cup. To save
potential confusion I am NOT sending full detailsof dates or locations but
just a list of the names of events. The purpose of this is to allow
organisers to check if their event is listed and if not to take immediate
action to find out what became of their FAI competition registration form
(contact me, Ian Kaynes, before Nov 28th and FAI office). Apologies to all
your other readers who are waiting for real information, but please be
patient!
Events are in chronological order of first choice date and are F1ABC except
where F1E is stated:
Bear Cup, Holiday on Ice, Kotuku Cup, Omarama Cup, Matfors VT
International, Australian Free Flight Society Championships, Australian
Free Flight Society Championships, Rana near Louny F1E, Baltic Cup, Rana
near Louny F1E, 19th Srem Cup, 17th Open International Jihocesky Pohar,
Von Hafe Cup, Novohrad Cup, Turda Cup F1E, Napoca Cup F1E, Prilep Brand
Cup , Verbitsky Cup, Antonov Cup, Scania Cup, Nordic Cup, Puszta Cup,
Voros Jena Memorial Contest, Poitou, 5th International Heri-Kargl-Cup F1E,
6th Weltcup Karneralm F1E, 33rd International Eifel - Pokal, 51st Israel
Free Flight Championships, The Stonehenge Cup, Mikulas Cup F1E, 12th Open
Internacional Castilla - La Mancha, Liptov Cup F1E, Lubomia F1E,
Memorial Djordje Zigic, Lubomia F1E, Krka Cup, Fahrlberg Cup F1E,
Oberkotzau F1E. Argentina Nationals should be added to the list as a
correction.
Ian Kaynes
Wet airfoils
============
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Roger,
A slight correction, the Waterman who wrote the airfoil article in Sympo88
was Bill. Bill Waterman flew a number of events from indoor canin to Rossi
powered gas models. He almost made the Nordic team as a Sr, but his 90"
wing folded on the last tow when he was leading the team selecton.
Bill went to UIUC and then got his PhD from Purdue. He was Chief
Aerodynamicist for the worlds largest maker of small gas turbines where he
pioneered some advanced concepts as FFers often do.
Besides pointing out the advantages of curved plates, Bill also noted
improved efficiency when stiffening ribs, ala Jedelsky, were added to fan
blades.
High lift of thick airfoils is a result of the stagnation point moving down
as AOA increases. This increases surface length on top and mean camber.
Major application in models is for tail feathers where the blunt LE improves
lift slope and thus stability.
The extreme for thickness improving lift is a Flettner Rotor with 100%
thickness which can have Cl=6. This is higher than the computer designed
multi element racecar wings.
Happy Thanksgiving to all,
H
Tail Feathers
=============
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In the recent banter from one subject to another,
Tail Feathers was mentioned ( the term ).
This brings to mind an old fable ( this is where Hermann comes in* ),
that, to catch a bird, sprinkle salt on his tail.
As a young aeronaut, maybe twelve or so, I tried this...
Many, many years later, I caught on...
Right, Hermann !
Brokenspar
* Hermann dispenses wisdom, history and erudition
Puszta Cup, European Championship 2002
======================================
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might also be of interest to some of the SEN recipients?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pinkert László"
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:43 PM
Subject: Puszta Cup, European Championship 2002
>
> The Hungarian Association of Modellers, the organizers of European
> Championship, the organizers of Puszta Cup and the organizers of Vörös jenö
> memorial Cup decided the following program:
>
> 2002
> 26 July: Arrival, registration to Puszta Cup
> 27-28: Puszta Cup
> 29: Arrival to European Championship
> 30: Registration to EC
> 31: F1A contest day of EC
> 1 Aug: F1B contest day of EC
> 2: F1C contest day of EC
> 3: reserved day
> 4-5: Vörös Jenö Memorial Cup
>
> The contests will on a new part of National Park with short grass.
> The official bulletins, maps, accomodation will on www.cavalloni.hu and on
> the website of EC (EC's address is not avaiable yet).
>
> Novohrad Cup will in Slovakia in Juni.
>
> 2003
> The program of Puszta Cup, World Championship and Vörös Jenö Cup will be
> similar to the above (with differents dates according to different week-end
> dates)
>
> 2004
> Puszta Cup and Novohrad Cup will organized in beginning of June as in
> previous years.
>
> See You on Hungarian Puszta!
>
> Sincerely yours
>
> Laszlo Pinkert
> This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
> www.cavalloni.hu
>
>
>
>
Reply to F1C and ground effects
===============================
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Bernard,
Wonderful news ! Talk about getting your dreams answered - they
already have exactly the event you describe. All-wood construction you
can build at home and slow motors. It's called Nostalgia Gas and I
understand it is very popular right here in the US. What more could you
ask - Enjoy !
Regards,
Martyn
Southwest Regionals 2002
=========================
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Hi Roger,
The Soutwest Regional Championships in Eloy, AZ will be held January
19-21, 2002. F1A, F1B and F1C will fly on Saturday, Jan. 19 and F1G, F1H
and F1J on Sunday, Jan. 20. For further information see:
http://www.aalmps.com/02info.htm
Peter Brocks
More wooden F1C
===============
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Dear Roger,
In response to recent discourse on FIC and particularly Bernard Scott's submiss
ion. How do you "permit" or "ban" a type of structure? Short of stripping a m
odel down to kit form how can anyone determine how it is constructed? The old
adage that you can't legislate against progress holds here. Certainly geared e
ngines are expensive (and from what I've heard not completely 'sorted out' at t
his stage} but as an F1B flyer I'd have to say that if the price of rubber keep
s going up the way it is then this class will soon only be for the wealthy few.
And who's to say what's round the corner for F1B with the 30gm motor rule, in
terms of technological development? There'll always be very clever people who
se natural abilities put them at an advantage. What I would hate is for FF to
go the same way as (most notoriously) Vintage CL TeamRacing in the UK where as
soon as anyone produces a model which is obviously better than anyone else's, t
he rulemongers come up with a way of banning it. This attitude kills developme
nt and ingenuity. However, what I would say about FAI FF is that most of the r
ecent performance-limiting rule-changes would appear to be based upon close exa
mination of the very best models rather than looking at average performance.
Is that your Swan over there or mine ?
======================================
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Mr SCAT,
I note a question in a recent SEN about tracking models using GPS.
I wrote a small piece on this subject for that fine organ Free Flight
News (see FFn June 2000) but for those of you who don't subscribe here
is a short summary.
Ornithologists have been tracking birds such as geese, cranes and raptors
for many years using GPS transmitters. They use the ARGOS satellite
system which began in the late 1970's and which utilise the NOAA polar orbiting
satellites. A brief description of the ARGOS system can be found at :-
www.argos.com/docs/sysdesc.pdf
At the time of the FFn article, on board transmitters weighed a minimum
of 17 grms of which half was battery weight; battery life was
typically 9 months and the on board system was about the size of a matchbox.
It was anticipated that the size and weight would reduce in time; accuracy was
quoted as a few metres.
The down side was that the position of the transmitter was sent via
Fax or Internet to the user, not to a dedicated receiver. Additionally
the cost was expensive at about US$3000 for a transmitter and US$2000 for
ARGOS data processing costs.
So in summary, the technology exists commercially to track
models via GPS albeit at a high cost.
In reply to Bernard Scott.
==========================
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In reply to Bernard Scott.
Bernard's analysis seems somewhat flawed to me in my epoxy-addled haze. I
remember well what F1C was like before 'composite structures' started to
be used (and do you include glass over balsa as composite?). In those
days, and even with lesser powered engines (ST15, Rossi15) the movement
in the non-composite structures created aircraft which were often
seriously dangerous and unreliable.
The advent of 'composites' by which I mean, firstly aluminium over balsa
and next CF structures, has made the aircraft more reliable and vastly
safer to fly. Now we only have to worry about pilot error, not mother
nature's variables as well.
The composite structures did not 'allow(ed) the useof ever more powerful
/ expensive motors, motors that would have been unusable in an all-wood
model.' These motors would have been developed anyway. Fortunately we had
composite structures in order to more safely utilise the more powerful
motors.
In the late 70's/early '80's I saw a great many F1C ships flying in a
dangerous fashion. I even saw a spectator injured (in NZ in fact). This
was with pre-composite models.
Bernard states: A return to traditional all-wood models would restrict
the use of super motors...'
How does this equate? The only thing that will restrict the use of super
power motors would be a direct restriction on super-power motors.
Safety is number one priority, participation is number two. My comments
re participation were in a previous SEN.
The one thing that we can all be certain of is this: the good old days
are gone. There will never be a return to 'what it was like back then'.
The best we can hope for is to mold a future for FF which is sustainable
and accessible to as many potential fliers as possible.
Richard Blackam
Re: all Balsa F1C
==================
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I am no F1C-Flyer, so you might disregard my comments ...
Limiting F1C to all Balsa would solve nothing. I am doing this with F1B, so
I may have some applicable experience (?)
First of all: how would you check what is inside of a balsa skin? My "all
Balsa" Wakes do have carbon reenforcements on strategic places, they have
Kevlar cloth inside, glass outside, etc. Exactly what would be allowed?
Secondly: Extreme loads due to high engine power do occur only (well,
mostly) in off-pattern flights. A clean vertical climb has lower loads on
the flight surfaces than the traditional (all Balsa?) spiral climb. So the
result might only be that an off-pattern flight would disintegrate in the
air, instead of on the ground! Preventing high-speed flutter can certainly
done with balsa.
If you want to reduce performance you might ban control movements (rudder,
elevator, flap), but this would make it even harder for newcomers, as high
power is much harder to handle without.
A better way to reduce performance might be to ban folding props. This would
not hurt the climb, but definitely the glide, and would automatically
destroy the advantage of a geared engine (larger prop - more loss on
glide!). It might even be combined with a minimum prop diameter
(displacement related, 3 to 4 inch per cubic cm), which would also
drastically limit power output.
A further way might be to _reduce_ wing loading, even putting an upper limit
to it (much lower than the present 50g/dm²). This will improve the glide,
but due to larger size will hurt the climb. And less total weight will put a
limit to strength automatically(?). Anyway, the models will get less
dangerous, as in my opinion the high wing loading is partly responsible for
the danger all spectators face when watching F1C.
But do you want to limit performance at all? You might scare away those who
do fly F1C, because they love that type of power, without attracting new
people!
Regards,
Klaus W.Salzer
More Scott Comments
====================
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Roger,
In regards to Bernard Scott's comments on banning
technology, the late Tom McLaughlin used a geared prop
on his model in 1970 at the Team Trials in
Albuquerque, New Mexico. Gieskings flew Flappers, many
models used VIT, fiberglass props and a fancy new
mylar covering called Monokote was used. It was the
first Team Trials with Rossi's, as I recall. Pretty
high tech stuff! Tom's gear setup was simple enough to
be pretty easily duplicated, as was his folding prop,
which folded as one piece. My point is that you'd have
to go back a long way to find a time when there was
not some kind of technology that some folks objected
to.
That said, I have always felt that the FAI events
should consider the World Champs, but ALSO modelers
from around the World where high-tech materials are
just not available at any cost, as well as average
modelers like myself who just like to fly the models,
feel the tug, and see their model high in lift with
twenty others.
Sometime back in the '70's, while I was editor of
the fab "Bat Sheet", I bravely suggested that wingspan
limits would a) limit performance in still air b) make
high tech materials less essential, c) slower
climbing, d) easier to transport and store (and by the
way, may have prevented the invention of the bunt
transition). I still think wingspan limits would be a
desireable rule change. I believe my suggested spans
were around 2m. for F1A, 1.5 for F1B and 1.7 for F1C.
It's just a thought, but I've been thinking for 20
years that it was a good idea. Thermals to all, Steve
2002 SWR Contest Information
============================
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Printed on System : aeromodel dot com for Admin
Complete details on the 2002 Southwest Regionals contest, to be held
January 19th and 20th, are available at
http://www.aalmps.com/02info.htm. Please note the January 1st
preregistration date (or conversely, the on field registration fee)
contained on the "linked" registration form. You contact me at
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. (or by telephone at 480-570-5234) with questions,
concerns, etc... Hope you all have a great holiday season, and I look
forward to seeing you in January!
- John Nystedt, CD -
.................
Roger Morrell
