SEN 1460

Table of Contents - SEN 1460


  1. Editor's Comment on the finals dialog
  2. An Actual Proposal
  3. Interesting proposals
  4. A Time for a Change
  5. What should we be focussing our efforts on?
  6. Bike Specialist
 


Editor's Comment on the finals dialog

Firstly thanks to all for contributing in the discussion and keep it up.

Secondly special thanks to Roger Simpson for coming up with an actual proposal and a key points.  Marty made a comment about people not wanting to change, I do not necessarily think that this is the case, what the issue is that no can agree what to change to.  If I understand Roger correctly what he is saying that the participants need to get together before the in-person TSC meeting, come up with  a sound common proposal so that there is a single generally accepted proposal in front of the TSC and so that we can all instruct our TSC delegate to vote for that proposal.  Maybe you like Roger's suggestion as is ? maybe you want to tune it?


An Actual Proposal

Team selection program comments

 Mike's and Roger's  comments in the last SEN were well thought out, now is the time for everyone to speak out about our team selection process.  We have had the same selection process since 1966.  One would think we might come up with something better.  It is time we do!!!!!.

Mike is right about the single finals, sudden death process we currently have........... it does kill interest, it also rewards a person who gets hot for that one single contest and makes the team without having to be in a flyoff.
These are not just my words but are the words of many other finals participants, they do not see where any performance has been required..

Our Team Selection Committee has in the past had a tendency to discard any suggestions about a different team selection process as sour grapes, suggestions from sore losers.   I would like all team selection participants to speak to their District Representative about what the participants want for a selection process.  Let's have a Tea Party occurance prior to the Selection committee In-Person meeting the middle of December in Dallas.

I had just finished putting the following multi selection contest proposal together when I read Mike's comments so decided to send this in.

Also, let me say this about Parkers proposal to have a single team finals consisting of two contests to select the team.  I see that as just an extension of the single finals we have now.  Do you extend the finals days to six? If you have a contest on the first day and need the 2nd day to finish the flyoffs, what if the 2nd day is blown out? On the 3rd day you want to have the 2nd contest, still blown out?  Haven't finished the first days contest yet, go to the 4th day, normally known as the reserve day?  Now what?

Also the two contest winners are on the team and you go to the highest non-winning score for the 3rd position.........  what if the flyoffs for the first contest occur on/in a beautiful thermals galore time period..... big thermals, winning time is 9 minutes, 2nd highest score is 8:49.  Now on the day of the 2nd contest the weather is no where near as good, practically no thermals, windy,  winning time is 4:55, 2nd highest time is 4:37.

You can not compare the flight times from two seperate contests, flown on seperate days.  You cannot say the one flier is more deserving to be on team than the other............ you must use scores achieved in the same contest, same day!!!

And you have the same issues and costs that we have currently in our team selection program.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Having a multiple contest selection process resolves a number of current issues that exist within the current selection process, issues that need to be resolved.

  1)  By using six established contests to select the USA team we do away with the almost impossible task of coming up with a QUALIFIED Team Selection Finals Contest Director.  We are now in the position that anyone who is qualified to be the CD, who has experience in running F1 Free Flight Contests is in the team program trying for the team.

  2.  Team Section funds are now at an all time low.  Questions are now being asked regarding how to fund future teams!  By using the six established contests to select the USA team, we can utilize all funding for the Team Finals for funding our future teams.

  The  2011 Team Selection Program budgeted for Finals Operation (includes DC, FA, TA, & event directors)  $2500, and the Finals Timer Pool  $1,800

  3.  An upfront program entry fee of $300 would be required (that is the same as previous program entry $75, plus the previous $200 finals entry, and an increase of $25 per program entrant (there were approximately 60 2010 Finals competitors.   60  X $25 = an additional $1500 for funding future teams)).

  4.  The $4,300 saved by not having a single finals, and an increase of $1500 in program entry fees would amount to an additional $5800 available each program cycle for funding future teams.

  5.  We do away with the timer problem of unequal entrants in one class to time another class.

  6.  We have a team selection process that stretches over a two year period
         -- keeps everyone involved throughout the process
         -- everyone has a chance to make the team right, right up through the last contest of the second year
         -- we do away with the current sudden death finals where one mishap (mechanical failure, etc) negates any and all preparation, performance, etc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  I propose that we have a team selection formulated as follows.

  The purpose of the team selection program is to select the best team possible to represent the United States at the World Championships.

  To that end the team selection program should be conducted utilizing those contests with sufficient entry to enable the competitors to demonstrate their abilities, and to demonstrate the performance of their models.  That is..... a competitor would have to earn his way onto the team through a program that requires preparation, consistency, and demonstrated performance.  Competitions to be used as Team Selection contests are to be contests that are World Cup contests and National Championships.

  Another thing to be considered in selecting the Team Selection competitions is retrieval equipment.  Muncie, with the availability of golf cart rental for retrieval, and Lost Hills, with the storage sheds which house the motorcycles, awnings, etc., of so many competitors, are the two main contest sites which have retrieval equipment capabilities for those competitors who fly in to attend the competition.  No other contest site has these capabilities.

  1.  I propose six Team Selection Contests, with the two highest points scores counted to determine the three team positions and the first alternate position.
          2.  With the goal of selecting the best team possible to represent the United States at the World Championships, I         propose the following six contests, based on the importance of the contest, the number of entrants (competitors that you must beat in order to score sufficient points to gain a team position),  and the availability of retrieval equipment.
        February 2011,  MaxMen/Bob White Memorial Contest,  Lost Hills CA   America's Cup and World Cup Contest.

        August 2011,  USA National Championships, Muncie IN,   America's Cup and National Championships Contest

        October 2011,  35th Sierra Cup,  Lost Hills CA,   America's Cup and World Cup Contest

        February 2012,  MaxMen/Bob White Memorial Contest,  Lost Hills CA    America's Cup and World Cup Contest

        August 2012,  USA National Championships,  Muncie, IN   America's Cup and National Championships Contest

        October 2012,  36th Sierra Cup, Lost Hills CA,  America's Cup and World Cup Contest

        NOTE:  I contend that most all of the serious American FAI competitors attend somewhere between four and all six of these contests over any two year period.  Competitors go where there is serious competition, they hone their skills, they see the latest in competition equipment, they thrive on the FAI community togetherness!           
           
  3.  The team selection program for selecting the team for the 2013 World Championships would start February 1, 2011, and run through the Sierra Cup International Contest October 2012.  The officialTeam Selection Program can be voted on, published, and program entry can all take place after the February 2011 contests, but the results of the February 2011 contests, and later contests, will be available and can be tabulated once the program mechanism is established and put into effect.  Program entry at any date would enable the program entrant to get points from prior contests, but no further back than 60 days prior to the date the program entrant enters the program.

  4.  Each of the six Team Selection Contests will be scheduled for seven rounds.  At least 5 rounds must be flown in order for the contest to be official.

  5.  For flying rounds, the flier can be timed by anyone, same as any America's Cup and World Cup Contests are run. (We are on a honor system at each and every contest we fly throughout the year and throughout the world..... this honor system can and should be retained throughout the round flying, we are so small in number, and know each other so well that through honor and respect we police ourselves without intentionally setting up specifics............ and we do away with the timer problem of unequal entrants in one class to time another class).

  6.  For flyoffs, the Contest Director must ensure that all fliers are timed by other F1A,B,C fliers.  Each flier in the flyoff must provide a timer to a timer pool, and timers from the pool must be assigned to fliers by a blind draw by the Contest Director.  The CD will ensure that the flyoffs are run on schedule in accordance with FAI Rules.  Should flyoffs not be possible because of the weather or field conditions, the fliers will decide where and when the flyoff will take place.  If all fliers (in their particular class) agree, the flyoff may be scheduled to take place anywhere and at anytime prior to the 2012 Sierra Cup....... there is no 60 day period where the flyoff must take place.  However, once the flyoff is scheduled, it must be officiated by 2 timers for each flier, and flown in accordance with FAI rules, i.e., at a scheduled time, 10 minute flyoff period, etc, and the results reported to the program score keeper as soon as possible.

  7.  There are no additional reuirements put on the Contest Directors of the six contests other than they must submit complete results of the of their contests to a program score keeper appointed by the Team Selection Committee.  The program score keeper will maintain up-to-date results which will be published and reported to program entrants each month by the team selection Committee Chairman in a monthly newsletter.

  8.  The scoring for selecting the team is as follows: 
  Placing    1     2      3      4      5      6      7      8       9      10     
  Points   50    40    30     25    20    18    16     14     12      10

  Each competitor awarded placing points is eligible for a bonus according to the number of competitors they have beaten in the competition.  The bonus points are calculated as follows;

  Number of competitors in an event   1 - 5          0 points
                                                      6 - 8        +1 Point
                                                      9 - 11       +2 points
                                                    12 - 14       +3 points
                                                    15 - 18       +4 points
                                                    19 - 21       +5 points
                                                    22 - 24       +6 points
                                                    25 - 27       +7 points
                                                    28 - 30       +8 points
                                                    31 - 33       + 9 points 
                                                    34 or more +10 points

  a) Placing points and Bonus points are awarded only for the placing of American competitors, i.e., all foreign competitors are removed from the results list prior to awarding Placing and Bonus points.

  b)  Placing points are awarded only to competitors completing one flight in the contest and bonus points are awarded only for beating competitors who have completed one flight in the contest.

  c)  Points are awarded only to the competitors in the top half of the results list.

  d)  In the event of a tie in any placing, the competitors with that placing will share the points which would have been awarded to the places covered had the tie been resolved.  (i.e., a tie for 3rd place would result in 30 + 25 / 2 rounded up to 28 points for each competitor).                                   

  9.  Should there be a tie in selection points at the end of the 2012 Sierra Cup, (points from the 2012 Sierra Cup Contest to be calculated immediately (at) following the Sierra Cup) the competitors who are tied will immediately fly off the morming after the Sierra Cup.

  Should one of the competitors who is tied in the points for a team position not be present at the Sierra Cup, then the flyoff will take place at Lost Hills one morning between the 2013 Isaacson contest and the 2013 MaxMen contest.  This flyoff will be organized by the Team Selection Committee.

  8.  In case any of the Team Selection Contests are not flown due to inclement weather, or any other reason, the following procedure will take effect.

  If one Team Selection Contest is not flown, this is acceptable.
  If two Team Selection Contests are not flown, one make-up contest will be scheduled and flown at the 2013 MaxMen Contest.
  If three Team Selection Contests are not flown, two make-up contests will be scheduled and flown, the first in conjunction with the 2013 Isaacson Contest, and the second in conjunction with the 2013MaxMen/Bob White Memorial Contest one week later.
  If three or more Team Selection Contests are not flown, the Team Selection Committee will adjourn and make a decision on how to complete the team selection process. 

  The above rationale is based on the fact that it will not be known if one, two, three or more contests are not flown until after the 2013 Sierra Cup.  Then decisions will be made.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  I believe such a program as outlined above with increase interest in the team section program, and it will increase entries in each of the team selection contests (entry which has been sagging of late).  Increased entries will necessitate an increase in performance by the American competitors and the program entrants in order to make the team.  The larger contests will also generate more revenue for the clubs that support the USA Team financially as well.   

  Roger Simpson





Interesting proposals...
 
Having been from the days of the qualifying, semis, and finals days, I have seen many proposals for how to pick a team. Remember the year we had three finals, one east, one west, and one middle?
 
This one, both Jim and Mike's, all have the contests all on the west coast. Being a midwest boy, I would need to take off two to three weeks to go out and compete. The east coast and southern folks would have the same problems. I personally don't think I (or the kid) could do that.
 
So, why not add a few contests to the middle or east. I know fields are at a minimum, but we do have the NATS and seem to get through it OK. This way everyone has a chance and maybe you do not need to travel to the left coast for all six contests (or whatever it turns out to be). The cost of hotel rooms alone would be pretty substantial (but then you do need one somewhere else anyhow- but, it would be driving instead of a plane trip and car rental).
 
I guess it is how badly do you want to make the team and what are you willing to spend. Plus, can those of us that still work get that much time off to play with our toys?
 
Heck, maybe we just put the names in a hat and draw the winner- It sometimes just works out that way anyhow!
 
John Lorbiecki









 

Is it time for a Change ?




After reading the last few SENs I decided I needed to reply and express my feeling about how I am feeling now that the finals are over.  I think I am the perfect example of why we are losing interest in this hobby.

 

Most of you know I went to Croatia last year with the US team in support of them. I went there to be a part of the team, to help them any way I could, and to see what a world championship was like being there first hand.  I must admit being there and seeing what it was all about totally motivated me to try and make the team next time around so I too could be part of this World competition.

 

When I came home I decided that I was going to enter the finals and actually try and make the team.  I had not entered the finals the past few times and was excited to try it again. When I came home I won two contests and that started my motivation to really give it my all to make the team.  I went to all of the contest I could, purchased two new models, practiced nearly twice a week for 2 months leading up to it at a local field, got the help of one of the best competitors in this sport, all in hopes of making the team.  I was giving it my all as anyone would leading up to the finals.

 

When the finals came I would have to say I was as prepared as I’ve ever been. One unexplained mechanical problem later, I was out of the contest.  All that work, months and months of preparation, money spent trying to be prepared, just to have something go wrong on one flight to take all that hope and excitement of making the team away from me.  It has left me with the feeling of what else is there to do now? I am not one that is chasing the America Cup, my goal was to make the team.  With the way the finals are now with a one contest, one weekend format,  it is tough to find that motivation to do it all over again. No matter how hard people try to get prepared all it takes is one minor problem or a bad flight and you’re gone. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done leading up to this contest all that matters is what you do at this one contest over this one weekend in those specific conditions. This just doesn’t seem to be right to not only me but for many others that I’m sure feel the same way as I do but don’t speak up about it because this is how we pick our teams, this is what we are all used to.  The current  rules clearly state it’s supposed to be this way so we must live with it. But aren’t rules are made to be changed if they improve the sport and improve participation and aren’t we the ones that decide on the rules?

 

With all that has been said in the recent SEN I felt it necessary to express myself on how I see this affecting me and possibly others.  This is a sport that is slowly going away from lack of interest for whatever reason. I am the perfect example of possibly why we are losing people. For years now we have been doing the same thing over and over again and no one is willing to step up and say, hey it’s time for a change isn’t it? Those people that do step up and say something are always looked at as poor losers and not looked at for actually trying to help make a change that would benefit us all.  Finally someone that has made the team has spoken up and has said we need to make a change. If we are to keep people coming back year after year, we have to make and effort to make it more motivating than having the finals once every two years the way we have it now. I’m not saying the multi contest program is the only way, I’m saying we just need to change it somehow to keep people interested. I personally vote for a change. I think a multi contest program could possibly help keep this program from slowly declining as it has over the past several years, but maybe a multi contest program isn’t the way to do it as so many people are against this method of picking our teams. But is it interest we’re trying to preserve or how we pick our teams?  

 

However the method, we need to develop a new program that keeps people coming back, keeps their interest up and allows us to pick a team based on performance over a period of time and conditions, not just over one weekend and the conditions that are present at that time. ( On a side note where was the last World Championship held that had 100 degree+ temperatures with no wind,  like we had at our finals? Shouldn’t we be picking a team based on flying in adverse conditions over a period of time to better prepare them for what many of the World Championships have?) I think it’s time to listen to what Jim is saying and what others are saying, it’s time to make a change because if we don’t one day, in the very near future it may come down to, who wants to go?

 

One last point, regardless if people are for or against a new program, the bottom line is we are facing an increasing growing problem with the organization of the finals.  We are running out of people willing to do it.  Jim and his team did a great job this time but I don’t see anyone lining up to do it the next time around.  Who’s going to want to take on this responsibility year after year and take on all the grief that goes along with it? I feel this is our most critical problem we have going forward, who’s going to run it next time or the time after that?  Any volunteers? 

 

I hope people speak up and express their feelings so we can all collectively make a change that will benefit us all moving forward.

 

Marty Schroedter

 

 What should we be focussing our efforts on?

 

I would appreciate if you can add the comments below:

 

Fellow flyers,

I’m writing per Michael Achterberg’s request for additional FF flyers to voice their opinion.

Jim Parker wrote a brilliant piece at SEN 1457 describing a proposed structure for the US team selection finals in which he described multiple structures and their benefits. I am a F1A flyer that is not a real contender for the team so I allow myself to voice my opinion as objectively as possible. The sad reality of our sport in the U.S. is that:

1.    The number of FF flyers is shrinking over time

2.    The costs of participating in the sport is increasing over time

3.    The complexity and time dedication required to stay in line with the technological developments increases over time

4.    FF flyers are located in different parts of the U.S. making traveling to contests a time consuming and expensive exercise  

While Jim’s comments are valid, there will always be a portion of our community that will feel disgruntled about a new structure. I believe that the current format mimics the WC structure well enough and provides a reasonable opportunity for flyers to demonstrate their consistency. The fact that in the last two finals there wasn’t a flyoff in F1A might demonstrate that all the suggestions for better structures are irrelevant if we can’t produce a team that maxes out.

While it is unfortunate, our sport is destined to be dominated by the core 15+ serious flyers that have the resources to acquire new models and have the time and travel budget to compete. This core group, by definition, is not lacking motivation and is probably most suitable to represent the US in the WC.   

My point is that we are focusing our energy on the wrong problem, instead of changing the rules of the game we need to focus on cultivating young new players that can join the game. As very soon, within 5-10 years, there will be only 9 contenders on the field in Lost Hills.   

Ranan Lachman (an F1A flyer and father to a 3 years old aspired FF flyer)

    

Bike Specialist

 
Hi Roger,
Saw the ads for "bikes for sale" in the newsletter.
Thought it will be  a good service to plug in for someone who may/can  help.
A friend of mine, Brian Kramer,  is a collector, fixer, re builder and 
seller of the mini Hondas.
A real specialist.
He may want to buy your bikes.
his contact:
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it._ (mailto:This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.) 
You guys make the contact.
good luck.
thermals
Arik Donde

 

 

.......................

Roger Morrell