SEN 1017 - 21 Aug 2006

SEN 1017 21 August 2006

Table of Contents
27th MMM FAI Annual -Etherington
Flight To Germany - USA Junior TEAM UPDATE - Bauer
Futher Comment on German World Cup Contest - Morrell
Less than 30 grams - Turkish Woodhouse
HOW COME? - Mate
2006 Symposium is Available - Stalick
B-24 airfoil - Hopper
SEN Fifth May 2006 issue 1006
Big Weekend at Tangent, Oregon.
Web Site to register with US State Dept. - Secor
aviation videos - Limberger
ROW 2006 NATS - Mate
Rocky Mountain FF Champs and FAI Dynasty Cup

27th MMM FAI Annual
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27th MMM FAI ANNUAL (Colorado)
June 30, July 1/2, 2006
CDs Chuck Etherington & Bill Lovins

Thirty Three flyers from the Western and Midwestern U.S. were on hand to
compete in the 'toughest FAI contest in America.' The morning weather all
three days was wonderful and despite breezy conditions in the afternoons,
no rounds were delayed or cancelled. Once the final round was complete,
the skies opened up and we were treated to an up close and personal
Colorado monsoon storm experience. We were forced to forego the trophy
ceremony and champagne. In addition to the eight FAI events, we flew
P-30, Old Time Rubber, Open Power, Classic Towline, Hand Launched Glider
and Catapult Launched Glider. These 'combined' AMA/SAM events have become
quite popular. In an ongoing commitment to support the America's Cup and
National Cup programs, this contest carried America's and National Cup

No one maxed out in the big FAI events maintaining the field's lopsided
dominance over the flyers. Pete McQuade (F1A) and Jack Emery (F1B) each
had 13 of 14 maxes. The mini FAI events had two maxouts in F1G (Ralph
Cooney and Bill Leppard). Don DeLoach maxed out and won P-30 (for the 3rd
straight year); Herb Kothe maxed out and won Old Time Rubber (for the 2nd
straight year). Rob Romash (winner) and Tim Batiuk both maxed out in Hand
Launched Glider, as did Lee Hines (winner) and Tim Batiuk in Catapult
Launched Glider. In all there were 342 flights posted with 216 maxes.
This contest continues to grow each year.

Saturday night saw an enjoyable banquet at The Perfect Landing, a
restaurant that overlooks the ramp and runways at Centennial Airport.

The end of the contest was punctuated with Jerry Murphy trying to cajole
everyone into a car away from the lightening overhead with, "OK, get your
a** fried then!" The next sound was a slamming car door, a short silence
and a lone voice crying out "Murph, you silver tongued devil.......'

I'd like to thank all who helped with the contest; especially co-CD Bill
Lovins for helping to run and prepare for the contest and Sue Etherington
for volunteering to serve as head scorekeeper.

1. Rene Limburger 2497
2. Pete McQuade 2370
3. Jon Davis 2264
4. Lee Hines 1744
5. Peter Brocks 1534
6. Willard Smitz 401

1. Jack Emery 2401
2. Eddie Van Landingham 2365
3. Don DeLoach 2113
4. Ed Wiley 2046
5. Dick Wood 1971
6. Darold Jones 1622
7. Mark Hoffman 781
8. Jim O'Reilly 54

1. Chuck Etherington 677

1. Peter Brocks 500%

1. Bill Leppard 720 Tie
1. Ralph Cooney 720 Tie
3. Jim O'Reilly 696
4 Peter Brocks 693
5. Jack Emery 692
6. Don DeLoach 691
7. Mark Hoffman 672
8. Eddie VanLandingham 670
9. Mel Gray 627
10. Dick Strang 582
11. Ed Wiley 434
12. Dick Wood 315
13. Jerry Murphy 250
14. Dick Branca 239

1. Jon Davis 600
2. Rick Pangell 566
3. Lee Hines 311

1. Don DeLoach 635
2. Fred Carstens 25

1. Don DeLoach 540
2. Bill Leppard 490
3. Jerry Murphy 352
4. Mel Gray 295
5. Rick Pangell 283
6. Cass Pangell 182

Old Time Rubber
1. Herb Kothe 540
2. Art Hillis 482

Open Power
1. Bill Lovins 446
2. Cass Pangell 426
3. Jerry Murphy 360
4. Don DeLoach 180
5. Don DeLoach 101

Classic Towline
1. Tim Batiuk 480

Hand Launched Glider
1. Rob Romash 588
2. Tim Batiuk 414
3. Todd Reynolds 239
4. Randy Reynolds 208
5. Mel Gray 189
6. Jack Ivey 128

Catapult Launched Glider
1. Lee Hines 480
2. Tim Batiuk 388
3. Rob Romash 241
4. Todd Reynolds 135
5. Randy Reynolds 115
6. Rick Pangell 98

Flight To Germany - USA Junior TEAM UPDATE
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Thought I would try to send you this email since Randy said you would be tak
ing your laptop to Germany. We hope that everything went well for your flight and
Randy's--and your drive to the flying field.

Our best wishes to all you guys---we want you to have nothing but maxes!!

---Al Hotard

From: "Kenneth Bauer"
To: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Hi Al,

You're right, I've got my laptop with me so I can keep up on email and other things.

All the flights here went well and we are all here with all our models in good shape.
No lost models this time. It is Sunday night and now the whole team is here as well.
Tyler and Cody were test flying today, and Brian flew
in the world cup contest yesterday but quite after 4 rounds because the wind
was getting high and we didn't want to risk airplanes.

Conditions are pretty tuff so far. Wind and rain, actually a lot like France was.
The field is a challenge because the airport is surrounded by a high
barbed wire fence with only a few places to get through in the whole perimeter.
Yesterday almost every flight went over the fence so retrieving is difficult.
Today the drift was a little more down the runways which are huge but the field is
very narrow when the wind blows across the runways.

Regards, Ken

Futher Comment on German World Cup Contest
The Editor

I was able to go the World Cup contest in Germnay that Ken alludes to above.
I was in London on business, so flew across to Berlin Friday night, droved dowm
Saturday, AM and flew F1B on Sunday. I was suffering from some side effects of medication
and had some difficulties but can't blame the fact that I stalled on the first round
4 minute max on anything but my poor judgement. I Flew on a pole with Bob Piserchio -
who made it to the fly off and Ryan Jones, junior team member. Ryan was flying his worst model
so did not score as well as he would have liked, but I think gained valuable experience. Ryan's
dad Charlie decided not to fly to to focus on helping Ryan, and his mon timed for all of when there
was no offical time keeper. Very much appeciated by Bob and me.
As usual Connie Piserchio was there to keep everyone
in line. It's always a big decision on the contest before the world champs what to do
if the weather is bad or if not. From personal experience in both Sazenna and Embalse,
I would not have done as well as I did in the Champs if I had not flown in the
pre-World Cup event. I know that some people like Randy Archer does not like flying in that
pre-contest, maybe when I get as good as Randy, I'll change my strategy!, For example
flying in the wind was tough, and it's important to work out the best approach,
for me I flew the same plane that I used in Argentina and inspite of not having helper
Malkin and team manager Jensen found I could still pick lift with the same

The organizers were a little short handed and did move the line to avoid the models
D/Ting into some high trees. This took a little longer than it should have, which
meant that they only got 5 rounds in before a rain squall stopped the regular
rounds. We then waited about 2 hand half hours til 7:30 or when we flew
the fly off. Bob Pisherchio was in the flyoff, flying is #2 model have lost the
stab on the number 1 on the last round. It was Bob's turn to stall down in just over
4 minutes, a pity because he got higher than the winner and it would have been good to see
him on the podium, instead of 5th place.

Speaking of Bob, he would be providing some of the transportation for the Junior team
doing the retriving, so during the f1A day he was helping, again getting valuable experience
on how to get access to the different fields. With the Junior team there is never any shortage
of energy or team work to chnage but a little of that age and cunning to go with the youth and
vigor always helps !

The site is a little strange, it's a former MIG fighter base that's been converted to a
commercial airfield on what appears to have been a field of dreams theory - build it and they
will come - The runway is really nice, over 3Kms in length! Apparantly
Lufthansa have used it from training and test flights, including with the Airbus
380, but no commercial use yet. So while people complained a bit.
It fortunate that the organizer was able to switch to this location, because
the very hot European summer had delayed the harvesting of some big potatoe
fields near the original site. Hordes of people tramping on the spuds
would have attracted the ire of the farmer and probably stopped flying in that
area for ever.

Less than 30 grams
Author : Woodhouse


The CIAM will be plain bloody daft if they go down this track. There are
ideas being suggested to cut the performance in the other classes as well,
which are equally foolish.

The last two performance cutting attempts have not reduced performance but
simply added cost and complexity. This results in reduced participation.
Numbers are in decline lets not help the trend, Poitou this year was well
down on entries.

The power run was cut - result gears and folders
The rubber was cut - result VP props

What is the objective? What are we trying to do?

If the idea is to cut the fly off numbers in the WC and EC there are simpler
and easier ways. Personally I have no problem with fly off numbers. At this
top level the flyers will max out provided they fly to their full potential.
The current models are consistent and a dropped flight is the result of
mistake. At this level there are not many mistakes made. So what to do?

The flying is the where the battle is joined rather than in the production
of the model. The models are now, with a few exceptions, all very similar
it's the flying that sorts it all out. So lets give the organisers a chance
to make the flying harder at events where and when it is needed, that is at
the WC and EC not at every event.

So what do we do then?

1. Get rid of the attempt rule. Ismail is correct in his thoughts. This
will get a few out of the running. It will simplify things and get rid of
the charge of possible ungentlemany conduct.

2. We continue to fly in rounds as now but add within that round a "window"
of time to be declared by the flyer. This window could be say 10 minutes
long. As soon as the flyer says " I wish to fly" he has to wind, start, his
engine or get his glider off the line in the "window". This should
concentrate the mind. Failure to get in the air in time is a zero.

Hard? So what, trying to win at this level is no pinic as it is. It should
be hard.

This will avoid the need for a new design to cope with new rules. The higher
the model specification the easier it is for the top level, they just have a
greater percentage potential performance gap in their favour.

Where are these ideas of model changes coming from? The push appears to be
from the countries who produce the kit. Cynics might suggest that sales have
plateaued and this is a way of whipping up some new business?

Whilst on the "business" side of things we should also be taking steps to
ensure that the Champs do not turn into a commercial exercise. This pastime
of ours may be considered a sport by some but we don't want it to go the
same way as some of the other sports do we? Do we really need the number of
additional events and days on the schedule at a champs, more money making?
It would be best if the organisers concentrated their efforts on the job in
hand - the Champs. There are plenty of other events already in place in the

Finaly, remember before we change anything lets be clear about the objective
then check that the proposals will lead to that objective being met. We have
history that proves model specification changing is not the answer. We need
to tackle the real problem. The real problem is in the flying, so lets look
at a way of making this more difficult and act accordingly.

Michael J Woodhouse, Norwich, UK.
Free Flight Supplies has secure internet credit card facilities.
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on 9/8/06 16:12, Ismail Sarioglu at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Ismail SARIOGLU
To:; FF Ian Kaynes ; Jean Wantzenriether
; Victor Stamov

Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 4:53 PM
Subject: CIAM Chopping the F1B Rubber Further

Dear CIAM-FF Committee Members,

There was a word of rule change in F1B , at EuroChamp.
Namely, chopping the rubber further down to 25 grams.

Let's have a look at the numbers ;

40 grams --> 35 grams =3D 12.5% Total: 12.5%
35 grams --> 30 grams =3D 14.3% Total: 25.0%
30 grams --> 25 grams =3D 16.7% Total: 37.5%
At the moment, very most of the F1B flyers are still using motor tubes,
designed for 40 grams. The propellers we use are designed mostly for 40 or
35 grams and trimmed in width. The same problem is also with the variable
pitch hubs.

Please add also the 10% energy cut from FAI-TanII --> FAI SuperSport on top
of this figures.

If CIAM chops the rubber down to 25 grams, the majority has to start with
something completely new , if they want to remain compatible. The changes
would surly include new airfoils, electro timers to utilise the more
precious energy even better, new props and hub designs.

All this will end up with a bonanza for ready to fly models, because the
ordinary modeller who partially buys machined parts and builds or integrates
his own models , won't have time to adapt to so many changes at once.

Since 1999 Israel, we are seeing the same faces around, just getting older
If CIAM makes such a drastic change, we are afraid that we won't see some
of them any more, let alone new flyers.

We F1B flyers, here in Turkey do not like the idea at all....

If this is never the less to be decided, please consider also chopping the
area, limiting electronics, limiting moving control surfaces etc. and coming
up with a complete re-definition F1B, because the impact will be no more
severe. May be a good engineered new definition can simplfy the model and
bring in new flyers.

More orthodox solutions we came up are listed below:

1- Flying Continental & World Champs with uniform ( FAI-SS ) rubber,
supplied by the organiser at a just price. This year, we have seen a big
change in climb performance of the flyers, who finally run out of Tan-II .
I am sure, at 1$ / rubber, rubbers can be made ready-to-wind en mass and
pre-ordering by strands and choosing the 10 packs by lottery will solve the
problems. Some friends can even make money out of this and most of the
flyers will be happy to pick-up a ten pack of rubbers and go flying.

2- "Unsuccessful Attempt" for F1B ( and also for F1A ) should be limited to
mid-air collusions. Crashing the model and maxing with the reserve one
should not be priced better than a 179 sec. Eliminating crashed competitors
should also easy the burden of fly-off's.

Also in F1A , we will soon see models which magically land under 20 seconds
after a bad bunt lunch, if CIAM does not call a stop to electronics ( should
I say, robo-avionics ) .

This is the consensus of all remaining active F1B flyers in Turkey and we
express our options as fellow sportsman.
If needed, we can also send it formally over Turkish AeroSports Federation
(THK ) , our national Aero Club.

Yours Sincerely,

Ismail Sarioglu ,
Ismet Yurtseven ,
Naci Bitik ,
Seref Yetis ,
Mehmet Haticoglu ,
Saim Gurer ,
Fatih Ergenekon ,
Kadir Baran , 0
from Turkey

Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

How come you discontinued my SCAT emails, please? Ed Mate

[YOUR sen has not been discontinued, you have not been singled out.
For various reasons we have cut
back on the production of SEN. Hopefully we can improve the situation.

WEe have not been able to update the subscriber list but will do that within
a week or so.]

2006 Symposium is Available
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Hi, Roger:
I would appreciate it if you would run the following announcement on the next
The 2006 NFFS Symposium is now available for purchase. This 39th annual
publication features tributes to the late Bob White and his exploits in rubber
powered models. In addition to an excellent lineup of technical, semi technical
and popular articles, the usual Models of the Year are detailed and two
inductees into the NFFS Hall of Fame are presented. This is an excellent production
that should be prominently displayed on the bookshelf of any free flighter.
The cost is $25.00
Also available is the 2006 BMFA Free Flight Forum, which is the British
equivalent to our Symposium. A limited number of these Forums are available for
$25.00 each.
Order either or both from NFFS Publications Services, PO Box 1775, Albany, OR
97321. Postage in the USA is $4.50 for one or both books. Postage out of the
USA is generally $9.50 for one or both books. In case of doubt, please contact
NFFS Publications via email at
Bob Stalick

B-24 airfoil
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Does any one have info of the David Davis airfoil as used in the B-24?
Info of ordinates,root depth,tip thickness,ect.? Also, did the stab have
positive incidence? Rudder tops are tilted rearward several degrees.
Guestimate 3/4 degrees. If you did this with an modle,does it create a
problem or may it help in an stall,with the wing and stab at positive
angles? Comments are very eelcome. Many Thanks

Ed Hopper

SEN Fifth May 2006 issue 1006
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Hello, Roger

This SEN was the last, whose I was received .
I would like receiving "your" SEN news in the future too.
My adress is still : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Thank you for your kind assistance
Damjan Zulic

[Damjan - we have not made any changes on ourside. But we did have some
problems with the internet connection that has been fixed.

Let me know if you get this ]

Big Weekend at Tangent, Oregon.
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Big Weekend at Tangent, Oregon.
In addition to the two FAI meets being held on the weekend, beginning
August 18 and ending August 21, the 40th annual NW Free Flight Championships
will be held on the same site. This contest will be held on Saturday and Sunday
with the following events:
For Junior Fliers:
Catapult Glider,
HL Glider
For Seniors and Open Fliers:
AMA 1/2A Gas, A Gas and BCD Gas Combo
Pee Wee 30,
HL Glider
Catapult Glider
1/4A Nostalgia, Early Nostalgia, 1/2A Nostalgia, A Nostalgia and BC Nostalgia
Dakota Time Target
Old Timer Ignition
OT .020 Replica
Wock Event
Lo-Doc Scale
One Design Event (Mini Pearl)
Classic A-2 Glider

The contest is a Cat. II AMA Sanctioned meet. We are having on on-field BBQ
on Saturday for contestants of all three meets. The contest is held just East
of the I-5 FWY about 5 miles South of Albany, OR.(Exit 228). Follow signs to
the field.
For further information, contact Bob Stalick

Other events scheduled for this field are set for Sept. 9 and 10 (Silents
Please and Old Timer Champs) and Sept. 30 and Oct. 1.(Fall Annual Recycled Trophy

Web Site to register with US State Dept.
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Here's a tip for US citizens traveling overseas...
Eddie Carroll says if he had registered on this
site: US State Dept, it would have made it easier
for people to help him when he got sick overseas at
the Euro WC this past July.......His wife had to go
over and bring him back, friends that were with him
were not allowed to get any information once Eddie entered the hospital.
> >
> > Web site link
> >

aviation videos
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

CONGRATULATIONS, KUDOS, WELL DONE Abram VanDover and all yuz guyz who helped
him with the ROW pond and event. It was GREAT. Since Hydro Ed (me) also has
water on the brain I forgot to pack my box maked FLOATS. Consequently I did
not have the pleasure of using the pond. But I went over after noon and took
many pictures of the afternoon action. One max and many over runs. It was a
privilage to sit with Abram and his Brainbuster cronies like Frank
Paramenter and David Tacton till the event closed. He had a plywood bound
album with many Brainbuster photos. Dave placed in the Spitball hydro event.
Hopefully next year I will be able to join in the hydro action. Bob Stalick
we missed you. Anyone who would like photos e-miled give me a holler on the
Ed Mate

Rocky Mountain FF Champs and FAI Dynasty Cup
From: Don DeLoach [mailto:This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]

What do you get when you mix the largest flying field in North America with
the friendliest club on the planet? Answer: The Rocky Mountain FF Champs,
brought to you by the Magnificent Mountain Men!

This contest is rapidly growing into one of the premier events in the USA.
America's Cup sanctioned and National Cup *EXEMPT* for 2006!
FAI-AMA-Nos-SAM-FAC events.

This year the contest is dedicatedto Herb Kothe-the greatest Free Flighter
in Colorado history. Contestants will be wearing Hawaiian shirts on Monday,
in tribute to Herb.

Send me an e-mail for a flyer & pre-entry form, or check the NFFS master
contest calendar at


Don DeLoach co-CD

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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

ead by : scat : at Mon Aug 14 02:46:56 2006


Dan Bros,
Your name sounds Hungarian like mine and Dick Korda. Anyway it is very
possible that the mistake in your museum is what caused the stated problem
below. PLEASE rectify it as soon as possible, before more problems are
created by the mistake in the museum about this VERY important model. I
believe you call it the Zipper. The Zipper is in one of your showcases
further down the line. The one hanging up is NOT the zipper. If you ever
recover it, it should be covered with white silkspan or the later more
recent and durable covering material Polyspan that looks like white
silkspan. Ed Mate

We IMACS will all miss Tim. Also can somone PLEASE send me master model
maker Chuck Shoocey's email or snailmail address. I thought the note I left
him on this problem got to him. Apperently not. Flying Models mag shows a
pic of his magnificent model he calls the "Diamond Zipper". That is another
airplane. IT IS NOT!, NOT THE DIAMOND ZIPPER!! The original model hung over
my head at Top Flite Models when I was working for Carl Goldberg in 1950. It
was covered with white silkspan and had a "Denymite" engine in it. Otto
Curth can verify this since he had the original model and he and I developed
drawings for it and two .020 versions. His 36" and my 28". The latter flew

Anyways Carl never named it. It was just the "Prototype Zipper to his final
Comet Zipper design which had better sales appeal. Unfortuneately it is much
harder to build and flew about the same. In about 1955 it was to go into a
museum in California. Carl was told that it must have a name for the museum.
(I don't know why.) He named it the "Gas Bird" which he did not realize had
already been used by Dick Korda for a similar airplane. Anywats it is the
"Gas Bird" or prototype Zipprer, IT IS NOT!, NOT THE DIAMOND ZIPPER!! Mr.
Chuck Shoocey. If you do not want to make a new sign for it let me know and
I will make it for you.

Roger Morrell