SEN 924 - 6 Jan 2005
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SCAT Electronic News 6 Janary 2005 issue 924
Table of Contents
=================
Isaacson Winter Classic 2005 - Furutani
Looking for a mount - Sisson
lift drag discussion - SkyKieng
Does less lift equal less drag - Skykeing
Mail - Segrave
3 Bubble machines for sale! - Lidberg
Soutwest Regionals, Eloy, Arizona Bulletin - Lidberg
Does less lift equal less drag - Gregorie
Once is enough and Seeing Double - Brokenspar
2004 KING ORANGE FAI RESULTS - Bradley
RULES: FAI FREE FLIGHT AMERICA'S CUP 2005 - Revised slightly
Isaacson Winter Classic 2005
============================
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The 2005 Isaacson Winter Classic
February 12 - 14, 2005 at Lost Hills, California
[The weekend before the Maxmen]
New! Sloan's Catering
Jay and Lois Sloan will have their food service on the field!
Support our Lost Hills friends!
Saturday, February 12,
F1A, F1B & F1C
Round 1, 8:00 am!
Round Schedule:
1 8:00 am-9:00 am
2 9:00 am-10:00 am
3 10:00 am-11:00 am
4 11:00 am-12:00 am
5 12:00 am-1:00 pm
6 1:00 pm-2:00 pm
7 2:00 pm-3:00 pm
Round One Maxes:
F1A 210 seconds
F1B 240 seconds
F1C 240 seconds
Fly-Off Schedule:
Round eight, 5 minute max.
F1A 3:30pm-3:40pm
F1B 3:45pm-3:55pm
F1C 4:00 pm-4:10pm
Additional rounds to be announced
Saturday
Special Event: Gollywocks!
Five, 3 min. max. 8:00 am-3:00 pm
Sunday, Special Events:
8:00 am - 1:00 pm
Sunday
"Mini" Events: NOTE! FORMAT CHANGE!
Round one, 8:00 am! Champagne Flyoff! Time to the ground.
F1G (Coupe D' Hiver)
F1H (A-1)
F1J (1/2 A power)
Round Schedule:
All events two minute max.
1 8:00 am-8:45am
2 8:45am-9:30am
3 9:30am-10:15am
4 10:15am-11:00 am
5 11:00 am-11:45am
Fly-Offs will begin at 12 noon and finish by 2:00. At 2:00, any
remaining ties will be broken by using Champagne Flight Times.
Sunday
Special Events:
Catapult Glider
P - 30
AMA rules.
Nostalgia Wakefield
3 - three minute maxes. Must weigh 8 oz. inc. rubber.
Bob White, event director
Monday!
F1E Slope Soaring
12 noon - 5:30pm
F1E contest will be held on Monday. Five rounds, 45 minutes each,
starting at 12 noon. Event director - Peter Brocks.
Entry Fee:
F1A, B and C, $10.00 each event. All others $5.00 each event.
(Must be current member AMA, MAAC or AMA Affiliate. Also Lost Hills
Assoc. member)
Awards:
Jr.-Sr. Open Class combined.
Saturday, First through third, each event.
Sunday, First through third, each event.
Perpetual Gollywock and Nos. Wake awards, courtesy of Bob White
General:
AMA rules except as indicated. This is a time one, fly one contest!
Contest Directors:
Norm Furutani
15423 Haas Ave.
Gardena, CA 90249
(310) 323-1943
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger Morrell
1916 B Gates Ave.
Redondo Beach, CA 90278
(310) 374-2136
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
In memory of our dear friends, Bob and LaVera Isaacson
Looking for a mount
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Some time in the past Doug Galbreath machined a mount
to mate the CS .049 to an Oliver fuselage. I'm in need of that
item. Before I try to get one machined does anyone have a
mount they are not using?
Bob Sisson
http:www.newg.info/index.html
lift drag discussion
====================
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sending again.....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it."
> To: "SCAT user"
> Cc: "michael segrave"
> Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 3:38 PM
> Subject: lift drag discussion
>
>
>
> Dear Mike, you sure love to stir things up! And worse yet you always
> manage
> to suck me in!
>
> (I guess its a case of those that can fly, fly, and those that can't, talk
> about it)
>
> Concerning your statements below, I would imagine that any climb angle
> much
> over seventy degrees wouldn't generate enough induced drag to worry
> about.
> As I understand it induced drag arises from the combination of high CL
> plus
> high wing loading. Trimmed out for a near vertical climb the resultant CL.
> would be hovering around zero and thus the wing loading would be nearly
> non-existent except for any thrust vector (down-thrust) off the flight
> path.
>
> Incidentally, Martin Simons, in at least an early edition of his book,
> Model
> Aircraft Aerodynamics, made a case for the most efficient climb angle
> being
> around 50 degrees. I questioned him about this a few years ago and was
> surprised that he still held to that opinion in the face of the nearly
> universal use of vertical climbs...and the supposed mathematical proofs
> supporting doing so. Still trying to figure that one out.
>
> An interesting question concerns the saddlepoint between induced drag and
> profile drag. It may be that under special circumstances profile drag can
> be
> reduced a bit at the expense of incurring some lesser increase in induced
> drag... that condition might be established by downthrust and/or a slight
> curved climb trajectory. ( popular F1C airfoils do not have their lowest
> profile drag at zero lift.)
>
> But on the downside it seems a fact that what appears to be a meaningful
> reduction in drag results in only minute gains in altitude. It is probable
> that the effect of a 10% reduction in drag during acceleration might not
>e
> discernible to an observer.
>
> ( Mike, when I first scanned your material I got the wrong idea you were
> claiming that an F!C ship climbed faster because its wing actually became
> detached from the fuselage. Sounded logical to me... not that wing drag
> was
> eliminated but rather that the engine had just got relieved of an 8 oz pay
> load! )
>
> What does mon view and next pass mean? Is that a typo?
>
> billious g
>
> ######
>
> > Are power models using lift of the wing on the climb? Some years ago,
> > it was said that power model's wing came off in the climb and the ship
> > accelerated markedly immediately. Yes, there is the profile drag of
> > the wing but is that all??? Do power models really climb VERTICALLY?
> > Just a few degrees off spoils any equation mooted, surely? And then the
> > wing must be contributing some lift and its associated drag, mon vieux.
> >
> > N'est-ce pas?
> >
> > Regards
> > Mike S
>
>
Does less lift equal less drag
==============================
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Trying once again!!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it."
> To: "SCAT user" ;
> Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 1:39 PM
> Subject: Does less lift equal less drag
>
>
> Does less lift equal less drag?
>
> Well, it seems we have gotten away from that!
>
> Thanks, John, for clarifiying the important distinction between
> "lift and "Lift Coefficient" in your letter at the bottom..
>
>
> John states below that "Normally the aeroplane would increase speed to
> keep
> the same Lift." And he qualifies his statement by saying he is painting
> with
> a broad brush to make a point.
>
> Okay, but it is a well known fact that our model god, Hung, dwells in the
> abnormalities.
>
> Somewhere in the thread I mentioned that the apparent improvement in the
> climb may be more to the change of ship's trajectory rather than to a
> decrease in drag. It is a dismal fact that decreasing drag does not result
> in a seemingly proper proportional increase in altitude. For example,
> dramatically cutting the drag IN HALF on an F1C (like getting rid of
> half the wing!) will theoretically result in only about a 15% increase in
> altitude.
> That doesn't seem fair!
>
> The fly in John's observation might be that it assumes the trajectory in
> both cases is the same but with differences in velocity and Cl (which
> would
> not be much) thus generating for each trim equal supporting lift. That
> description does make his case. But that situation is not necessarily so.
>
> Here is an alternative scenario: A fixed geometry airplane might take a
> different course. For example, with excess power the ship would produce
> excess lift which would translate to a loop which which futher translates
> to
> a helical climb. Along with the curved flight path decreasing the angle of
> attack the extra non-perpendicular "lift" force will be matched by both
> downthrust and the centrifugal force developed in the turn. So, more
> "lift"
> is generated in one case as compared to the other.
>
> ??
>
> Billious g
> P.S. Here is a "bonus" thought not directly connected. I'm reminded
> of the urbane legend-like misuse of the terms "lifting" or "non-lifting"
> to
> describe a stab merely by the particular shape of its airfoil. ( The fact
> of the matter is that a positively cambered airfoil can be employed Upside
> Down with the stab still being "lifting" if the rigging and c.g. so dictates
> it.)
>
>
>
> ============================
> Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
>
> I have not followed this thread closely and the old ones are now deleted
> so
> > I will just throw in a couple of brief comments. If I have missed
> something
> > important by not paying attention earlier then I am sorry!
> >
> > Most airfoil data are published at infinite aspect ratio. Picking
> figures
> > off the graphs without some additional work can lead to misleading
> > results.
> >
> > Is there a danger here of mixing Lift and Drag Coefficients with actual
> > Lift
> > and Drag? Bill G says: " To operate them below that optimum angle of
> > attack
> > would indeed generate less lift, ... " and George Schroedter says: "When
> > you
> > decrease the decalage, the angle of attack is decreased. This, in turn,
> > reduces wing lift, which decreases drag. QED."
> >
> > In both of these cases it is the Lift Coefficient that is reduced.
> > Normally
> > the aeroplane would increase speed to still keep the same Lift.
> >
> > There are a lot of little things that could be argued here but I am
> > painting
> > with a broad brush just to make the point.
> > >
> > John Barker - England
Mail
====
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Will anyone who has asked for a copy of "One year....04" through the mail
and not received a reply, please notify me through SEN as there appears to
be a bottlenweck somewhere.
Regards
Mike S
3 Bubble machines for sale!
===========================
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Been cleaning house here - found 3 serious bubble machines that should be in
use somewhere. Whether you're searching for thermal lift, amusing small
children or pets, or you're a Lawrence Welk wanna-be, please take a look:
http://www.aalmps.com/bubblesale.htm
AL
A. A. Lidberg model plan service
www.aalmps.com
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Soutwest Regionals, Eloy, Arizona Bulletin
==========================================
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It's not surprizing that few people have been interested in providing food
service at our Eloy flying site due to its distance from Phoenix or
Tucson. That has changed, however - we'll have:
Pulled beef bar-b-que sandwiches and plates
Hamburgers
Hot Dogs
Chips
Soft Drinks
Water
etc.
The person who will do this is Mike Henry who I think is from Coolidge, a
nearby town. Mike will set up a few tables & chairs. He prepares the
food on a grill and cooks the beef in the ground. He does this on a
regular basis and sounds like he will do a competent job. If he has lots
of customers, perhaps he can do this regularly.
Our site is conveniently located within 5-6 miles of 2 truckstop restaurants,
a McDonald's, a nice family restaurant, and a pancake place, so if you'd like
to take a break, that's easily possible, too.
Remember, the SWR contest is actually 3 contests plus a MECA Collecto. 15-16
[& 17 with RC OT only] January. Get more details at:
www.aalmps.com/05info.htm
AL
A. A. Lidberg model plan service
www.aalmps.com
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Does less lift equal less drag
==============================
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There's one factor missing from this discussion: propeller thrust. If
the following relation is true:
t >= w * sin(a)
Where
t = thrust
w = model weight
a = the climb angle
then the model is flying entirely on thrust. In these circumstances wing
generated lift is un-necessary and may well upset the pattern. However,
for many sections zero lift does not mean zero drag. Good flat-bottomed
sections like the Neelmeyer have a zero lift AOA of around -6 degrees
and this is likely to have increased drag because there will most likely
be flow separation on the under surface. I think you'll find that an
under cambered section has an even more negative zero lift angle and
will cause even more drag at zero lift.
What to do:
- if you have huge amounts of excess power (F1C) then fly a vertical
pattern at zero wing lift and live with the wing-generated drag or use a
folder. Symmetric sections have minimum drag at zero lift (zero AOA).
- if thrust is close to model weight then you'll get a faster climb by
trimming to the minimum drag AOA of the section and accepting that some
wing lift will be generated. This will probably mean applying down trim.
Bigger brains than mine can tell you if the resulting faster pattern
gives the highest climb. I think there's articles on this in the NFFS
Sympo archive, but mine is out of reach at present.
Martin Gregorie
Once is enough
===============
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I have been getting SCAT messages twice, lately.
With my short memory, I suppose it's OK.
But I'd rather have thought of this myself..
( thanks )
Brokenspar
Seeing double
=============
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For some reason, recently, I get two displays of each =20
SCAT sending.
This is probably a good idea.
With my limited span of attention, I don't always
get it the first time.
On the other hand, I should probably be insulted
that I am singled out for this obvious condescention !
Brokenspar and other s .. I observe that Brokenspar only commented
about getting 2 copies, someone else said they got 4, they must have
partied harder than Hardy. or needed further reinforcement.?
The double copies were not a function of neither your festivities, nor mine
but during the Xmas period I spent time on the road, helping out with
no doubt. And we got additional help from our internet provider that caused
the redoubtable Skykieng [ and others less re doubtable] to have to
re-submit his literary works more than once. These problems appear to be fixed
so here's hoping for a smoother 2005.
2004 KING ORANGE FAI RESULTS
=============================
F1A
1. John Bailey, (Great Britain) 72 105 180 180 180 180 897
2. Bob Sifleet 180 132 68 82 462
F1B
1. Jim Bradley 180 164 180 180 143 135 133 1115
2. Tom Ioerger 0 0 180 180
F1C
1. Gil Morris 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 385 1645
2. Bob Gutai 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 288 1548
3. Bob Sifleet 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 261 1521
F1G
1. Ed Hardin 120 120 120 120 116 596
2. Dick Ivers 120 120 120 120 114 594
3. David Sechrist 120 120 120 82 120 562
4. Tom Ioerger 64 120 106 120 120 530
5. Garren Malin, (JR) 54 109 63 226
6. Ray Combs 120 94 214
F1H
1. Bob Sifleet 107 88 120 102 120 537
2. Rich Ivers 120 72 120 58 120 490
3. Jean Pailet 42 94 67 120 103 426
4. Garren Malin, (JR) 42 50 57 149
F1J
1. Tom Kerr 120 120 120 120 120 315 915
2. Bob Gutai 120 120 120 120 120 241 841
3. Gill Morris 120 120 120 120 120 0 600
4. Jean Pailet 120 120 120 120 73 553
5. John Bailey, (Great Britain) 120 120 120 24 384
Jim Bradley
FAI Events Director
RULES: FAI FREE FLIGHT AMERICA'S CUP 2005
==========================================
Revised 12/20/04
The purpose of the America's Cup Competition is to foster the
development of flyers and models across North America in the FAI
classes F1A, F1B, and F1C as well as the mini-events, F1G, F1H, F1J and
F1P. This coast-to-coast competition requires flyers to attend multiple
contests each year in the United States and Canada in order to win. To
this end the Southern California Aero Team has formulated the following
rules:
1) America's Cup designated contests must be flown in accordance with the
provisions of the FAI Sporting Code and as follows:
a) F1A, B and C Contests must be a minimum of 7 rounds plus flyoffs if
required. First round max durations should require the current extended
flight times as stated in the FAI Sporting Code. F1G, H and J contests
must fly a minimum of 5 rounds plus flyoffs if required. F1P is to be
flown as a provisional event, it can be stand-alone event or flown jointly
with F1C or F1J. The F1A, B, C, G, H and J events must have discreet
rounds and must be flown from a launch line. If flown as a separate
event, F1P need not meet the discreet round and launch line requirement.
In the case of deteriorating weather or for safety reasons, contests can
be terminated after 5 rounds, and the Contest Director must provide the
situation description. The CD must also indicate which round max
durations were shortened from those stated in the FAI Sporting Code
b) For F1A, B, and C, contests flown over two days must have 7 rounds
minimum (exception as above), and scoring will be based on total rounds
flown. Contest Directors are urged to configure and conduct contest
rounds to best allow 7 rounds plus flyoffs to be completed.
c) A $25US America's Cup Contest Sanction Fee is requested on or before
April 1 of the current schedule year and required by the end of the year.
Acceptable forms of payment are Money Orders or Checks made out to SCAT
and sent the address below. Non-payment will result in the removal of the
contest from the following year's schedule.
d) The maximum number of America's Cup contest is 30. The SCAT America's
Cup Administrator will recommend changes to designated contests to the
SCAT Club at large after careful consultation with contest organizers and
FAI competitors in the USA and Canada. The preferred method of making
changes to the designated contests is for the active clubs and
participants in the affected region to submit the recommended changes. New
contests will be granted Conditional Status for their first year on the
Calendar, based on their adherence to FAI rules as reported by organizers
and contestants to the AmCup Administrator. Points scored at Conditional
Contests are fully counted.
e) In the event of rescheduling or cancellation, the organizer must make
an effort at widespread notification to those affected. Notices via e-
mail, phone calls and SCAT Electronic News (SEN) met this requirement. A
30-day advanced notice is recommended and a 15-day notice is required.
f) Contestant eligibility is restricted to residents of the United States,
Canada and Mexico. The residency of a person means the place where a
person lives for at least 185 days prior to the start of the America's Cup
cycle for which they desire eligibility. This residency is based on
employment status and/or personal ties; in the case of a person not
working in North America, a close link between that person and the place
where they live must be demonstrated. New residents must contact the
Administrator to establish eligibility. Other foreign competitors are not
considered in the quantity of entries or in the individual scores.
2) Any number of Designated Contests can be entered and at any contest
site.
3) The highest scores from a maximum of four contests will be counted.
4) The total score may include two scores from one site only; all other
scores must come from different sites, that is, the scores must come from
at least three sites. Points are scored a follows:
1st Place 25 points
2nd Place 20 points
3rd Place 15 points
4th Place 10 points
5th Place 5 points
6) Extra "Bonus" points are scored on the number of contestants in an
event:
1 - 5 0 points
6 - 8 +1 point
9 - 11 +2 points
12 - 14 +3 points
15 - 17 +4 points
18 or more +5 points
7) Contest ties must be settled, or else competitors receive the lowest
score possible. For example, if three tie for first place and the ties
are not settled, then each of the three receives the third place score (15
points). If two tie for fourth place and no settlement, each receives 5
points. If five or more max out with no flyoffs, then each receives 5
points. Bonus points are added to the above scores.
Contest ties are to be broken in a sporting manner, in which the event's
models are flown. A single "flyoff" flight or the results of a future
contest are the preferred methods for tiebreakers. The sportsmen are
responsible for arranging a suitable tiebreaker. The results of the
tiebreaker are to be documented in writing, and agreed upon by the
participants. If attempts at breaking the tie are ultimately
unsuccessful, the America's Cup Committee is responsible for
adjudication. Ties must be broken within 60 days of the contest or by
January 15 of the following year, whichever is sooner, or the scores will
remain as ties with the lower score recorded.
8) Ties for first place in the final scoring are settled by counting 5
contests in totals or more if necessary, Rule 4 not withstanding. If this
does not settle a tie, then taking the scores from the five best contests
and multiplying by the total number of contestants in the 5 contests in
the competitor's event determines the winner.
9) For contests with fewer than 5 entrants, full points will be awarded as
per Rule 5. In the case of only one entrant, 25 points will be awarded
only if all other conditions of these rules are met; the contestant must
fly in a sportsman-like manner.
10) 'Entry' means - made at least one official flight.
11) Points are scored on the calendar year basis. The America's Perpetual
Cups and a trophy will be awarded to the winners at a banquet on Saturday
night of the Max Men 14 Round International Contest in California (no F1P
Cup for the 2005 season). Also, certificates for the first five places and
first place only for F1P and for Junior High Point. S.C.A.T. will pay for
the Cups to be shipped to the winners who are unable to attend. However,
it is the responsibility of the winners to have their names engraved on
the placard and return the Cups to the America's Cup Administrator in time
for the next Awards Banquet. If Cups must be shipped, it is the
responsibility of the winners to insure the America's Cups for $300.00 US.
12) Contests Directors or FAI Event Sponsors are required to send full
contest results including all contestants, and all round scores with
indication of all FAI Junior scores and any non-AmCup entries in each
event to Jim Parker, preferably in Excel format via email within two weeks
of the event. Plain text, WORD, RTF electronic formats or Paper copies
will be accepted. Contest results with the above information should also
be sent to SCAT Electronic News (SEN).
America's Cup Administrator:
Jim Parker
SCAT Electronic News (SEN)
9524 Ruffner
North Hills, CA 91343
......................
Roger Morrell
