SEN 854 - 22 Feb 2004
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- Category: Archive 2004
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SCAT Electronic News 22 Febrary 2004 issue 854
Table of Contents
=================
SEN from the editor
Maxmen Results
Found after the MaxMen
Free Discus - Ball
very good work has already been published - molendorf
Re: Low tech trimming - Wantzenriether
My Maxmen 2004 View - SweepetteLee
Just a taste... - Coussens
Maxmen Flyoffs - Schlosberg
Stability Oops. - Bogie
Various Comments from the Edge
BuntBone Tune Session
Isaacson Winter Classic 2004 RESULTS
"Lulu" International Postal Competition May 1st-September 30th - Moseley
Item wanted - Kowal
F1B Sale - Wiley
SEN from the editor
===================
Firstly SEN performs a different function than other more
erudite modeling publications. We try to bring news in the
most up to date fashion as possible. We are a little
different from a 'standard' internet style news group
because the publication is edited or moderated. This
consists mainly of cleaning up the presentation of the
material that you all contribute. In the 8 years that we
have been doing SEN there have been only one or two items
that we have decided not to publish, and that's our
editorial prerogative. We do make little editorial
comments from time to time and we try to always do that in
a positive manner that promotes FAI free flight and
encourages those who support it.
I am a member of SCAT and we have a reputation of being
somewhat hard-core although I think we have mellowed over
the years. I do fly F1B, sometimes better than other times.
SEN is not supported financially by SCAT as I won't let
them so I could stop doing it should I want to. SEN is not
a revenue generating source for SCAT or me. SEN is
distributed via the Web Site and via e-mail. To provide web
access we have a business DSL line and run a web server and
some associated software and services.
For this reason I accept donations in support of SEN. In
response to Phil's question below, $20 is a typical
donation. Seeing the object of SEN is to support Free
Flight we do not want anyone to feel obliged to make a
contribution.
MaxMen Results
==============
Maxmen 2004 F1C
===============
A.KIRLENKO USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 519
R.GUTAI USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 478
E.VERBITSKY UKR- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 468
R.ARCHER USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 464
G.MORRIS USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 397
D.SHIRLEY USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 356
K.HAPPERSETT USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 382
T.KERGER USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 0
R.SIMPSON USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 418
G.MEANNANO USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 418
E.CARROLL USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 374
N.POTI USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 358
F.PARKER USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 161
D.JOYCE USA- 172- - - - - - - - - - - - 2512
J.WARREN USA- - - - - 160- - - - - - - - 2510
P.WATSON GBR- 165- - - - - - - - - - - - 2505
S.SCREEN GBR- - - - - - - - - - - - - 156 2496
R.MC BURNETT USA- - - - - 156- - - - - - - - 2496
D.JOHANNES USA- - - - - 149- - - - - - - - 2489
H.NYHGEN DEN- - - - - - 160- 157- - - - - 2477
B.SERVAITES USA- - - - - - - - - 155 135- - - 2450
M.GEWAIN USA- - - - - - - - - 45- - - - 2385
D.CHESSON USA- - - - - - - - - - - - 31- 2371
PECHERSKY CAN 89- 118- - - - - - - 166- - - 2353
H.SPENCE USA- - - - - - - 54- - - 175 0 0 2027
D.HALLIDAY USA- - - - - - - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1260
Maxmen 2004 F1B
===============
J.BRADLEY USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 299
P.RUYTER NED- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 297
A.ULM USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 420 250
G.BATIUK USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 405
L.HORAK CAN- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 373
M.SEIFERT GER- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 367
A.BOURDOV RUS- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 348
T.LINKOSALO FIN- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 302
A.ANDRIUKOV USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 282
R.PEERS GBR- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 278
R.ROHRKE USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 268
P.CROWLEY USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 229
WALTONEN FIN- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 225
P.SCHEIMAN(JR) USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 210
S.STEPENCHUK UKR- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 202
R.COONEY USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 102 201
Y.BLASHEVICH UKR- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 192
E.GORBAN UKR- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 192
R.KHUZEV RUS- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 120 79
B.BEIDRON USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 114
M.MULLIGAN USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 112
J.SCHROEDTER(JRUSA- - - - - - - - - - 168- - - 2508
B,ASLETT GBR- - - - - - - - - - 151- - - 2491
S.RADZIUNAS(JR)USA- - 148- - - - - - - - - - - 2488
J.EMERY USA- - - - - - - - 168- 158- - - 2486
M.SCHROEDTER USA- - 141- - - - - - - - - - - 2481
M.WOODHOUSE GBR- - 175- - - - - - 140- - - - 2475
B.PISERCHIO USA- - 127- - - - - - - - - - - 2467
N.MIKHEYEV RUS- - - - - - - - - 125- - - - 2465
J.CLAPP USA- - - - - 125- - - - - - - - 2465
J.PRATT USA- - 122- - - - - - - - - - - 2462
G.JENSEN USA- - - - - - - - - 141- - - 161 2462
B.JENSEN USA- - 155- - - - 144- - - - - - 2459
E.NELSON USA- - - - - 124- - - - - - 173- 2457
P.VAN MERKESTYNNED- - 112- - - - - - - - - - - 2452
R.FELIX USA- - - - - 118- - - - 159- - - 2437
J.PECK USA- - - - - 92 171- - - - - - - 2423
R. JONES(JR) USA- - - - - - - - - - 115 117- - 2371
B.BOOTH USA- - - - - 140 67- - - - - - - 2367
R.MORRELL USA- - 138 130- - - - - 169 119- - - 2356
D.MC GUCKIN USA- - 137- - - 133 163- 110- - - - 2343
G.SCHROEDTER USA- - - 119- 152- - - - 68- - - 2319
D.WOOD USA- - 137 156- - 143- - - 137- - 111 2204
R.TYMCHEK USA- - - - - - - - - - - 8 0 0 1988
W.GHIO USA- - 169- - - - - - 140 132 44 0 0 1925
A.BUKIN UKR 98- - - - - - - - - 137 0 0 0 1855
H.BENEDINI ARG- - - - - - - - O O O O O O 1440
C.JONES USA- - - - - 157- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1237
L.NORVAL USA- - 158 152- - - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1210
M.DAVIS USA- - - - - 117- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1197
D.MYERS USA- - - 159 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 699
C.DORSETT USA- - 163 53 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 562
MaxMen 2004 F1A
===============
T. COUSSENS USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 420 540
M. KOCHKAREV RUS- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 420 365
D. OLDFIELD GBR- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 420 309
T. OXAGER DEN- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 420 290
J. NYHGEN DEN- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 420 250
R.PUHAKKA USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 420 245
C.BREEMAN BEL- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 420 204
J.PARKER USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 417
B.VAN NEST USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 325
P. BARRON(JR) USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 301
B.COUSSENS(JR) USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 299
A.BARREN USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 184
D.PARKER(JR) USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 177
P.BROCKS USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 173
P.BRUN USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 60 117
H.DIEZ USA- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2520 16
M. MC KEEVER USA- - - - - - 176- - - - - - - 2516
J.PENNINGTON GBR- - - - - - - - - - 167- - - 2507
S.MAKAROV RUS- - 160- - - - - - - - - - - 2500
S.SPENCE USA- - 159- - - - - - - - - - - 2499
V.STAMOV UKR 177- - 154- - - - - - - - - - 2491
T.TZVETKOV USA- - - - - - - - - - - 149- - 2489
M.THOMPSON USA- - - - - - 172- - 172 163- - - 2487
M.FATHAM GBR- - - - - - - - - - - - 146- 2486
J.DAVIS USA 146- - - - - - - - - - - - - 2486
D.CLARK USA- - - - - - - - 138- - - - - 2478
Y.EVODKIMOV RUS- - - - - - - - - 136- - - - 2476
A.JACK GBR- - - 123- - - - - - - - - - 2463
I.FRADKIN USA- 148 154- - - - - - - - - - - 2462
J.LIVOTTO USA- - - - 129 169- - - - - - - - 2458
A.SCHLOSSBERG USA- 132- - - - - - - 160- - - - 2452
D.EDMONSON USA 121 166- - - - - - - - - - - - 2447
L.TETRICK(JR) USA- 99- - - - - - - - - - - - 2459
L.HINES USA- - - - - - - - - - 122 156- - 2438
C.EDGE GBR- 151- - 146 149- - - - - - - - 2426
K.BAUR USA- 179- - - - - - - - - 87- - 2426
V.BESCHASNEY UKR- - - - - 91- - 165- - - - - 2416
J.CARTER GBR- 147 102- - - - - - - - - - - 2409
F.TERZIAN USA- 123- - - - 123- - - - - - - 2406
S.LIMBERGER LUX- 172 105- - 147- - - - - - - - 2404
M.MOSKOVITZ ISR 59- - - - - - - - - - - - - 2399
T.SECOR(JR) USA- - - 158 178- - - - - - 82- - 2398
B.BAUER(JR) USA 173- - - - 123- - - - 119- - - 2395
C.CUSICK USA- - - 160- 63- - - - - - - - 2383
N.SMITH USA- - - - - - 78- - - - - 136- 2374
D.ZINK USA- - - - - 79- 172 141- - - - - 2372
G.MADELIN GBR 166 126 132- - - - 131- - - - - - 2355
P.ALNUTT CAN- - 169- - - - 110- - - - 95- 2354
A.ELLIS USA- 131- - - - - - - - 44- - - 2335
J.SOMER NED- 165- - - 124- - - - - - 91 151 2331
E.BUSNELLI USA- - 140- - 23- - - - - - - - 2323
E.PECENKOVIC USA- 68- - - 110 153- - - - - - - 2311
J.COOPER GBR- - - - - - - 22 119- - - - - 2301
P.TRIBE GBR 44 142- - - - 161- - - - 166- 150 2283
L.FARKAS CAN- - - - - 51- - - 48- - - - 2259
K.JONES(JR) USA- 82- - - - 131 161- 93- - - - 2249
M.COWLEY USA 66 157- 120- 83- - - - - - - - 2226
D.PROTHEROE USA- - 165- - - - - 129- - 83 0 0 1997
R.LIMBERGER LUX- - - - - 26- - 0 0 0 0 0 0 926
MaxMen 2004 F1P
===============
C.SECOR 1285
Maxmen 2004 F1J
===============
D.SHIRLEY 1740
B.GUTAI 1631
A.GUNDER 1630
N.POTI 1380
T.OXAGER 1323
S.SCREEN 1311
D.JOHANNES 1290
G.MENNANO 1289
B.SERVAITE 1281
J.WARREN 1243
F.PARKER 1242
E.CARROLL 1212
P.WATSON 999
D.ROUNSAVI 790
K.OLIVER 751
D.PARSONS 690
T.ROBERTSO 596
W.GHIO 543
Maxmen 2004 F1H
===============
BR.VAN NES 900
Y.EVDOKIMO 815
M.MC KEEVE 807
M.COWLEY 803
M.KOCHKARE 779
D.PARKER 774
D.ZINK 768
G.MADELIN 767
V.BESCHESN 763
N.SMITH 760
E.BUSNELLI 747
J.COOPER 732
J.MEKINA 724
S.MAKAROV 688
T.LINKOSAL 598
K.JONE 596
J.DAVIS 588
L.HINES 588
B.NORTON 585
B.COUSSENS 574
C.EDGE 537
P.TRIBE 516
V.STAMOV 505
J.PENNINGT 491
MaxMen 2004 F1G
===============
A.BOURDOV 859
E.GORBAN 815
B.BOOTH 812
A.BUKIN 796
G.SCHROEDT 786
S.STEFANCH 776
J.CLAPP 771
J.PRATT 768
B.DAVIS 767
M.SCHROEDT 766
H.COLE 766
B.WHITE 765
B.TYMCHEK 760
J.SCHROEDT 760
J.EMERY 759
R.COONEY 756
M.DAVIS 739
D.PROTHERO 737
T.KEPPLER 721
L.NORVAL 709
P.RUYTER 707
A.RAYMOND 610
E.NELSON 594
C.JONES 590
B.GANNON 587
P.SEIFERT 586
P.BROCKS 532
T.PROTHERO 523
D.WOOD 477
T.O'DELL 467
P.SCHEIMAN 425
R.JONES 205
B.VAN NEST 120
Found after the MaxMen
======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Item found on the field at Lost Hills after the Maxmen meet.
1 - 5/16" to 1/2" tee wrench
2 - 18" long aluminum rod
3 - battery pack (2 small round batteries) with leads
4 - 3 computer hookup cables
5 - thermal pole with meter and thermistor
Contact George Batiuk at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. if anything sounds familiar.
Free Discus
===========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger
Hope you are well, thanks for all the hard work you put into SEN I certainly
appreciate it.
I have read with interest the discussions about sharing new ideas and
developments and also the amusing stories about Discus Launch F1Bs and F1Cs.
I first saw RC Discus launch at the 2001 World Champs at Lost Hills and I
must say it blew my mind away so much so that I spent many hours thinking
how I could translate the technique to FF HLG.
Although I parked the idea for a while it was resurrected early last year
when my HLG flying partner Andy Hewitt and I decided to give the idea a go
and see if we could make the technique work.
A short summary of our progress to date is as follows, we have both built 60
inch span what can loosely described as scaled up HLGs. The construction is
as an HLG but with a solid LE to the wing and a built up rear.
To control the transition from launch to glide the models are fitted with a
system that is basically what you would find on a bunting F1A or F1C.
A modified Snoopy timer gives up elevation and lots of opposite rudder to
the direction of launch rotation , bunt as the speed decreases and then VIT
into glide, the timer is started at launch with a line from the timer to the
launch tab.
Trimming progress has been slow to date as we are really stepping into the
unknown although things seem to be coming together now that we have gained a
little more knowledge.
The main changes to date have been to double the rudder size to counteract a
sever roll in the direction rotation immediately after release and a change
from a thin tail section to one with increased area and a 6% F1A section .
To spread the word and hopefully get some feed back Andy and I presented a
paper to the BMFA FF Forum late last year which should be published mid
2004, I have also written an article which was published in the March 04
Edition of Radio Controlled Model Flyer including sketches and a dozen or so
photos.
I have put my neck on the block and stated I will fly Discus HLG through the
2004 British Season and as I write I have approx 5 weeks to get it fully
sorted, I am not panicking but I could do with a couple of calm days soon.
Andy being a little more sensible than me is just hoping to fly his model.
Has any of the SEN READERS had any experience of FF Discus HLG and would
they like to discuss it with me either through SEN or at
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..
I will keep you informed of the progress and also look forward to seeing
those Discus launched F1Bs and F1Cs.
Phil Ball
Email This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..
PS How do I support SEN and how much do I give?
[Phil
I saw your article in Model Flyer, great article and yours
and Andy's models look very interesting.]
very good work has already been published
=========================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
fellow free-flighters...i have recently learned that the article i had
proposed for a nffs symposium paper, "vertical stabilizer (fin/rudder)
sizing/location", has already been very aptly done by bill bogart and is
in the 1980 symposium volume...consequently, i see no point in doing it
again and have withdrawn my abstract...thanx for your interest and
input...joe
Re: Low tech trimming
======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Original message :
>Re: Low tech trimming. This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
>(1) Right power/right glide, using right rudder ...
>(2) Right power/left glide, using ...
>(3) Trim the glide so that it stalls when flying straight... <<
John, if one must absolutely think :-)) with a very minimum of effort, yes,
the 3 methods you mention are useful. Just a question : is the climb or
glide in small circles the most performing that we search for ?
Method 3 reminds us of the trimming method of Bob White, NFFS Sympo 1988.
With a difference. One cannot obtain a straight power burst path when the
wing-tail decalage is too great. Bob reduces this decalage (and moves the CG
back) until the limits.
>From Alex Andrjukov we have learned - if necessary - that all adjustments
must be small (rudder, warps, etc) and balanced two by two : see P. King's
article, Sympo 1998. So on a gadget free model you may keep the velocity
high, the overall drag low, and the stability always active around the 3
axes : all that is of first importance.
>From these bases the old *geometrical* view (methods 1 and 2) of a trim is
no longer useful. It's better to use the concepts worked out by F. Zaic in
"Circular Airflow". That is : the changing motor torque and the changing
model velocity are the decisive forces, which permanently work on the model
surfaces, giving sideslip, rolling movements, and pitching moments too. Here
is no place for the whole Circular Airflow... But for example Zaic pointed
out that a too great a fin area can launch the model in a strong looping.
Such a interpenetration between longitudinal and lateral motions is to be
understood today. Similarly, why have upper-fins prevailed against
under-fins ? A good trimming concept *must* have the answer... which is not
the risk of damage by landing...
Curious to read more sophisticated opinions. JW.
My Maxmen 2004 View
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Hello all you lurkers,
I just returned from LH & THE MAXMEN comp.
It was a great comp[possibly the biggest ever], in great weather for Feb,
but I failed to maxout, as my lack of fitness since the knee pain began
probably caused me to lose focus and launch into nothing in rd 11 for 122
sec. RATS!
The surgery won't be before April, most likely, but I have decided to
go Down Under anyway. I may not do a full flying schedule, but I
have to go...according to my sister and Roger M, at least.
To the comp results:
F1A: Tom Coussens maxed the 2nd FO[9 minute]to beat Kochkerov.
15 in FO, BTW.
F1B: Jim Bradley beat Pym by 2 sec in FO[but Pym will win soon, I am sure].
Al Ulm's fine 3rd[?]placing was warmly received by all present.
F1C: Andre Kirelinko beat Bob Gutai in FO, ahead of both World Champs.
It was inspiring to see a good group of junior fliers competing and
doing so well!
For instance, Peter Barron, Ben Coussens and Dallas Parker all maxed
out in F1A, as did their dads! I will remember that always.
Sorry I was too busy to see much of the other classes, but several
times you could hardly believe how many planes could fit in one thermal!
It was terrific to view 30+plus airplanes circling above you.
If you were there, you KNOW!
If you were not, you will want to be there next year!
Ciao,
Leeper
--- Lee Hines
Just a taste...
===============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Just a taste...
It was one of those weekends, totally unexpected, when everything just
fell into place. I could almost see the thermals on Sunday. A weekend of
strolling on tow to the "Big Green Thermal Machine", waiting till a boomer
took my Buntbone, alone, up and away. All my decisions, strategic and
tactical, paid off. I couldn't buy a dropped round, (though I nearly
succeeded in the 14th). A weekend full of my trademark "Arbitrary Trimming",
making multiple adjustments on top of adjustments between each trim flight
as whim and intuition directed, the penultimate being the last tweak
before the 9-min round. And to top it off, Ben was right there with me,
maxing all the way to the 7 min round.
I hadn't won a major contest since '97, had not maxed out the Max Men
since '94. Yet there, on that chilly grey afternoon, as I approached on
my Cub, my Stamov still circling above the plowed field in the background,
were Jim Parker and Steve Spence, and Steve with this huge grin, pointing
at me and yelling, "You da man!".
Later I found out the real cause of that long flight: It was 3-year-old Celine
Busnelli, blowing kisses at my ship as she and father Ernesto rode chase.
There is no feeling like it. For a few fleeting moments I got a taste of the
next level, a glimpse of the world that Parker, Spence, Archer, Andriukov,
Stamov, Kochkarev and a handful of others inhabit. No wonder they try
so hard...
Tom Coussens
Maxmen Flyoffs
==============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
At the Maxmen I was able to time and observe the flyoffs on
Sunday, February 15, making two drops on the way. George
Batiuk wisely decided to jump to a 7-minute max followed by
a 9-minute max, managing to cram in 6 flyoff sessions (two
for F1A, B and C) given the large number of fliers who maxed
out.
By 5 PM, after being overcast all day, it was getting cooler
and a light breeze was coming from the east. Maxing in Nordic
and Wakefield required hooking a thermal. The thermals,
tended to be soft, covering a wide area.
At the first Nordic flyoff, the fliers fanned out in all directions.
Some tremendous bunts were not always followed by a thermal.
As the drift was very low, other fliers could wait and see how
things turned out.
The Wakefield fliers were spread along a east-west starting line,
and most flew at about the same time. The models on the west
side managed to catch a thermal, while those on the east were
less lucky. Most Wakefield had small circles, although larger
ones would have definitely helped.
Power was a different story. All the fliers were corralled into a
small square area and flew in mass soon after the first one or
two models seemed to be in good air making timing a deafening
experience.
By now, the Nordic fliers who made the 7-minute max were back.
Some flow at the beginning of the window on the west side.
Sergei Kochkarev and his helpers arrived a few minutes late with
a long model (100") and Tom Cussens who towed up earlier were
the last fliers. Sergei proceeded upwind and sampled the air on
the ridge, just south of the cars, which seemed to be buoyant
until a minute before the round's end before launching. Tom, who
also flew upwind at bit to his south decided to wait almost to the
last moment, feeling that the air is improving, had a group of
flappers run under the model in its first two turns. This definitely
proved to be a good strategy as he maxed, while Sergei did 6:05.
It was now Wakefield's turn, trimmed down to a few fliers.
Jim Bradley blow a motor and wound up a second model, flew
after the crowd. The delay, of about two minutes, may have
also coincided with better air, and he won by 2 seconds.
The 9-minute F1C flyoff was made as it was becoming dark.
As usual, everyone seemed to be off in a defining minute. As
models drifted west, the last one up would be the winner. First,
it was Eugene Verbitsky with the blades pointing forward (a bit
like a squid) Then it was Bob Gutai and finally it was Andrei
Kirilenko who was flying a conventional ungeared model which
outglided the higher reaching geared models.
Aram
Stability Oops.
===============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger, The following happened offline.
Sometime back, Joe Molendorf mentioned that he was looking into the
lateral-ditectional stability of model airplanes for a paper in the
NFFS Symposium. I
responded to him directly as follows:
Joe,
I wrote a piece in the 1980 Symposium on the subject. The vertical tail and
the wing dihedral are hooked together, vertical tail volume and lateral
stability, Clbeta. My learning was enhanced considerably, after Ohio State, at
the
Martin Company in Baltimore. OSU was way behind in the '40s. There is a long
equation, fifth order I think governing the subject, which I had to solve by
hand. The last term is a constant determining spiral stability.
If you cannot locate that Sympo, let me know and I will send a Xerox copy to
you.
There was another piece I did for Model Aviation in the January 1965 issue.
I do not have it anymore.
Bill Bogart
I completely forgot to do this through the SCAT Electronic News.
Sorry about that, Chief.
Various Comments from the Edge
==============================
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Mr SCAT,
Just got back from the execllent MaxMen contest and
despite the jet lag have already read SEN. SEN is the
BEST site for what we guys do but like any internet or
paper based publication is reliant on what WE input to
it. I too have tried to get some thread going but it is
difficult. Anyway as my input from a sunny, calm, Lost
Hills-like Scotland, a few responses to past questions.
D-Box repairs. I used to research composite repairs on
military aircraft so I have some experience. The
mistake is to assume that the damaged structure has no
strength or stiffness and so try and add a similar
layup on top. In fact if there are no major holes there
you can just cyano the bits back together and add a
couple of thin layers of glass cloth to get 100% of the
properties back. If there are big holes the technigue
as described by Mike Fantham (also an aerospace
engineer) works well. Often there is no need to add a
big ugly patch of similar d-box over the top.
Discuss launching. As noted elsewhere Phil Ball and
Andy Hewitt have been working on large 300 sq. in. HLGs
for some time. The problem they have is that Phil is
left handed and Andy right handed so simultanious
launches are, er, interesting. With some lateral
thinking, the guys have now applied to the UK Arts
Council for a grant as the whole thing looks like
sychronised swimming for model planes. Soon maybe they
will be performing live on Broadway ?
EoB
Isaacson Winter Classic 2004
============================
February 7-9, 2004
147 total entries.
F1A
PL Name
1 Ernesto Busnelli 210 180 180 180 180 396 1326
2 Mikhail Kochkarev 210 180 180 180 180 339 1269
3 Vasily Beschasny 210 180 180 180 180 308 1238
4 Mike McKeever 210 180 180 180 180 291 1221
5 Jes Nyhegn 210 180 180 180 180 241 1171
6 Tom Oxager 210 180 180 180 180 60 990
7 Jim Parker 210 180 180 180 173 923
8 Rene Limberger 195 180 180 180 180 915
9 Randy Weiler 184 180 180 180 180 904
10 Henning Nyhegn 210 180 180 144 180 894
11 Don Zink 174 180 180 180 180 894
12 Peter Brocks 210 180 180 180 132 882
13 Ryan Archer 210 180 110 180 180 860
14 Brian Bauer 210 180 180 180 105 855
15 Victor Stamov 159 180 180 180 148 847
16 Brian Van Nest 210 180 111 180 162 843
17 Cenny Breeman 210 180 180 180 66 816
18 Mike Thompson 210 173 180 180 72 815
19 Lee Hines 210 102 136 180 180 808
20 Yuri Evodkimov 210 180 167 64 180 801
21 Martyn Cowley 210 180 139 88 180 797
22 Juan Livotto 202 180 180 59 175 796
23 Sergei Makarov 153 180 163 112 180 788
24 Pierre Brun 156 180 97 141 180 754
25 Jon Davis 191 180 180 180 21 752
26 Hector Diez 210 0 180 180 180 750
27 Ken Bauer 206 180 180 180 0 746
28 Norm Smith 210 138 180 110 107 745
29 Peter Allnutt 210 180 75 65 180 710
30 Mati Moskovich 210 180 180 119 689
31 John Cooper 189 180 180 116 665
32 Tyler Secor 210 161 180 99 650
33 Jan Somers 210 180 99 102 5 596
34 Ed Carroll 210 169 85 464
35 Logan Terick 210 180 40 2 432
F1B
PL Name
1 Yuriy Blazevych 240 180 180 180 180 352 1312
2 Pim Ruyter 240 180 180 180 180 344 1304
3 Audrey Burdov 240 180 180 180 180 327 1287
4 Jeff Schroedter 240 180 180 180 180 316 1276
5 Rich Rohrke 240 180 180 180 180 277 1237
6 Elmer Nelson 240 180 180 180 180 247 1207
7 Ladislav Horak 240 180 180 180 180 233 1193
8 Mike Mulligan 240 180 180 180 180 217 1177
9 Stepan Steanchuk240 180 164 180 180 944
10 Jack Emery 240 180 180 139 180 919
11 Bill Booth 240 180 180 180 123 903
12 Radik Khuziev 240 180 180 123 180 903
13 Eugent Gorban 192 180 180 156 165 873
14 John Pratt 240 180 180 175 95 870
15 Dick Gilderslee240 102 180 180 161 863
16 John Clapp 149 180 136 180 180 825
17 Pieter Merkesty240 180 180 180 0 780
18 George Schroedt216 180 180 180 0 756
19 Roger Morrell 166 136 143 180 131 756
20 Walt Ghio 240 155 180 180 0 755
21 Martin Schroedt240 152 180 180 0 752
22 Bob Piserchio 200 180 180 180 0 740
23 Nikolay Mikee 240 180 180 124 0 724
24 Bernard Aslett 198 138 151 180 0 667
25 Philip Scheiman133 180 104 112 123 652
26 Bob Tymchek 177 180 132 148 0 637
27 Alex Andriukov 240 180 152 0 0 572
28 Alexi Bukin 208 160 180 0 0 548
29 Vrjo Waltonen 127 153 13 293
F1C
PL Name
1 Terry Kerger 240 180 180 180 180 454 1414
2 Ken Happersett 240 180 180 180 180 441 1401
3 Don Chesson 240 180 180 180 180 436 1396
4 David Johannes 240 180 180 180 180 417 1377
5 Eugene Verbitsky 240 180 180 180 180 372 1332
6 Stafford Screen 240 180 180 180 180 253 1213
7 Dave Shirley 240 180 180 180 180 148 1108
8 Mike Roberts 240 180 180 180 160 940
9 Guy Mennano 212 176 180 180 180 928
10 Doug Joyce 228 156 171 180 180 915
11 Roger Simpson 240 180 180 119 180 899
12 Peter Watson 240 180 173 593
13 Noman Poti 69 180 140 180 569
14 Ken Oliver No Score 0 0 0 0 0
F1E
Pl Name Total
1 Peter Brocks 500.00%
2. Jon Davis 347.81%
3 Norm Smith 327.75%
4 Bob Norton 315.17%
F1G
PL Name
1 Stepan Stefanchuk 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 245 1325
2 George Schroedter 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 231 1311
3 Alexei Bukin 120 120 120 120 120 186 786
4 Radik Khuziev 120 120 120 120 120 179 779
5 John Clapp 120 120 120 120 120 143 743
6 John Pratt 120 120 120 120 120 91 691
7 Eugeny Gorban 120 120 120 120 120 82 682
8 Jeffery Schroedter 120 120 120 120 120 600
9 Bob Tymchek 120 120 120 110 120 590
10 Jack Emery 120 120 120 98 120 578
11 Peter Brocks 120 120 93 120 120 573
12 Audrey Burdov 120 120 120 90 120 570
13 Pim Ruyter 120 100 120 109 104 553
14 Martin Schroedter 120 120 79 65 120 504
15 Aimee Raymond 120 120 0 0 120 360
16 Bill Booth 120 109 120 0 0 349
17 Philip Scheiman 119 120 0 0 0 239
18 Elmer Nelson 0 0 120 0 0 120
19 Bob White No Score 0
F1H
PL Name
1 Mike McKeever 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 240 300 *230 1850
2 Ernesto Busnelli 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 240 300 *200 1820
3 John Cooper 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 240 282 1602
4 Martyn Cowley 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 240 146 1466
5 Jim Parker 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 103 1183
6 Victor Stamov 120 120 120 120 120 240 182 1022
7 Norm Smith 120 120 120 120 120 240 84 924
8 Vasily Beschasny 120 120 120 120 120 164 764
9 Brian Van Nest 120 120 120 120 120 111 711
10 Yury Evdokimov 108 120 120 120 120 588
11 Jon Davis 120 120 120 100 120 580
12 Mikhail Kochkare120 83 120 120 120 563
13 Ryan Archer 120 120 120 74 120 554
14 Joe Mekina 120 109 120 80 120 549
15 Micheal Thompson115 114 44 120 120 513
16 Bob Norton 120 0 120
17 Sergei Makarov No Score 0
F1J
PL Name
1 Guy Mennano 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 200 1280
2 David Johannes 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 177 1257
3 Stafford Screen 120 120 120 120 120 240 240 105 1185
4 Dave Rounsaville120 120 120 120 120 240 240 90 1170
5 Mike Roberts 120 120 120 120 120 196 796
6 Lynn Pulley 120 120 120 120 120 112 712
7 Peter Watson 120 120 120 120 120 64 664
8 Tom Oxager 120 120 120 120 120 12 612
9 Norman Poti 120 120 120 120 120 0 600
10 Henning Nyhgen 102 0 66 0 0 168
11 Jeff Ellington 36 120 156
12 Ed Carroll 120 0 120
13 Dave Shirley No Score 0
14 Walt Ghio No Score 0
* Estimated score - placing is correct
F1P
PL Name
1 Cody Secor 180 180 180 180 180 900
Gollywock
PL Name
1 Stan Buddenbohm 180 180 180 180 720
2 George Batiuk 135 180 99 81 180 675
3 Al Hotard 91 180 145 416
4 Tom Laird 0 0
Nostalgia Wakefield
PL Name
1 Tom Laird 120 180 240 240 780
2 Bob White 120 180 240 198 738
3 Peter Allnutt 120 180 138 438
4 Dick Gildersleeve120 180 114 414
Catapult Glider
1 Lee Hines 35 120 106 84 120 120 360
2 Stan Buddenbohm 106 51 120 109 120 3 349
P-30
1 Audrey Burdov 120 120 120 360
2 Al Hotard 0 0
BuntBone Tune Session
=====================
Randy, I'm sending to SEN so others might benifit / weigh in. Jim
________________________________________________________
Lee/Jim
When we were setting up the Bunt Bone you made a comment that the stab we
were using was a older bigger version. One reason I bring this up is
Tyler's Bunt Bone did a strange thing that cost him a max. He launched in
good air, got a straight up bunt with a good recovery, then after the
first turn it speeded up and went hard right nose down for about three
glide circles, almost like it was spinning in, also looked like not enough
incidence to recover. My first thought was, is the airfoil rudder the
problem, or is the stab lifting too much? More washin in the right panel
needed for glide? One last factor is we were using Red Magic program to
set DT, did the glide setting get messed up? After that flight I had
Tyler reload a saved version of his setup that was still in the palm, he
flew two more rounds, seemed to fly ok, but the last round the first
glide turn it was showing the tendency that when the glide speed increased it
was tending to drop the right wing and turn hard right again. It dampened
out after 1/4 of a circle, and went on to climb up and Max. Any
input based on you experience with the Bunt Bone?
Randy Secor
___________________________________________________
Lee Hines reply:
Randy,
It sounds to me like the lifting fin is the culprit.
I had mine spin at times, before I put on the symmetrical one.
Also, it would act like it did not have one, or know where
it was at other times, when the speed was low.
As for the stab size, go to Vasi's website and look up the
Buntbone drawing. It is 4.3 dm sq.
You should recheck the dims against your stab.
Ciao,
Leeper
____________________________________________________
Jim Parker's reply:
Randy-- first rule out a improper "fast glide" setting. This would be a
line after the bunt position and before the glide position. The stab
setting should be different by only 1-2 counts and the time should be
only 1-3 sec. It is possible that you don't have this which is OK.
You may wish to get an experienced Black Magic person to look at your program.
Most flyers have backed away from fast glide for instances as you
discribe. IF you come over the top with too much speed and the nose
is down and now under incidence (ie fast glide position), much altitude can
be lost in the 6-8 sec we originally used for F.G. I now use only one
count of incidence difference for only 1.5 to 3.0 sec.
Even if you fix a "too much fast glide" setting, I'd still ripoff the flat
airfoil rudder and replace with a symetrical one. I'd go slightly smaller
than the original W.B. / B.B.-- I use ~11 sq in on Dallas' W.B. wing
models. By the way Dallas' 1st W.B model had a flat bottom airfoil rudder
and displayed some strange thermaling (or lack of thermaling) that I
attributed to speed senitivity of the rudder (I also consulted with Lee who
agreed). This model was build several years ago when the flat airfoil
rudder was used by Victor S. I believe he is no longer using it either.
Use as large a stab allowed by total 527 sq in limit. Dallas' W.B. models
use a slightly smaller stab (64 sq in,we put a little more area in the
wing). Lee mentioned Vasi's Buntbone stab is 4.3 dm sq. (66.7 sq in). The
orginal W.B. had 75-70 sq in-- big by today's standards.
Also, remember the Golden Magic Magic Rule: ALWAYS, ALWAYS 'connect' to
pull the program from the model into the B.M. Loading saved programs in the
Palm into the model is a dangerous operation.
JIM
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"Lulu" International Postal Competition May 1st-September 30th
==============================================================
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For many years an annual postal competition has been run from the UK for
the ever-popular "Lulu" lightweight vintage glider, designed by John
Barker and published in Aeromodeller well over 50 years ago. The event
attracts participants worldwide.
This easy-to-build, easy-to-fly glider can be flown in the period May
1st to September 30th, rules are simple and there are numerous prizes
(including last placing contestant!) ; anyone interested, please contact
me offlist for full details of the event, design, photo, etc.
Sadly, it can't be flown in any of the new NFFS 'Classic Glider' events
as the restrictive rules disallow it but ...it's very elegible for the
Unlimited Glider event at the "Great Grape Gathering" of course, and no
doubt for the similar event at the 'Empire State Championships' in
August.
Item wanted
===========
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First I must say thanks for all the responses I got to my garage sale. All
the items were sold the first day!
Now that I have cleared some space I can start on a new project so I am
looking for:
1- Bradley F1H towhook. This was the molded plastic thing that is still
available from someone else I believe.
Anyway if you have one laying around you want to get rid of I will trade
you for a Bradley F1A towhook or timer
or buy it outright.
Thanks
Ken
F1B Sale
========
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I am cleaning out the model box. The three F1B planes described below have
been flown for several seasons. They are in good but not perfect shape and
close to or ready to fly. These planes have seen action. You will find
puncture repairs on the coverings and evidence of repainting on the tips. I
will be glad to send detailed pictures to anyone with a real interest. Any
of the three would make a good back-up plane and all would be great for
beginning Wakefield sportsmen, or sportsmen wishing to try high tech and who
cannot afford to buy a new plane.
#8. 1700 mm span. VIT, WW, IPR. Gorban wing platform. X-Joyner World Champs
plane. A great plane that served me well.
# 10. 1750 mm span. VIT, WW, IPR. Vivchar. The tail boom and one wing have
been repaired (well repaired).
#39. 1600 mm WS. VIT, IPR, three-position rudder in lieu of WW. Vivchar.
(three-position tail works just like WW.) A nice windy weather model.
$300 each plane plus shipping. If you buy all three I will pay the shipping.
Thanks, Ed Wiley
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..................
Roger Morrell
