SEN 902 - 12 Sep 2004
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SCAT Electronic News 12 September 2004 issue 902
Table of Contents
=================
Classic Glider in National Cup - Mattes
Classic Glider in National Cup - Stan and the Leaper
Power model - Segrave
Junior Champs - Seagrave
Sky-Scraper Annual, October 16-17, for FAI, AMA, FAC, SAM - Barron
FAI Stickers - Limberger
F1B Rubber Questions and Answers from the NFFS BBS - Hardin, Johnson, Morrell
Canada Cup
Hold that Tiger! - Leaper
Classic Towline rules - Augustus
David Ackery and Re nos - King
Re: planform - Jean W
F1j for sale. - Wilkinson
Classic Glider in National Cup
==============================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Gentlemen,
We are in some need of feedback on the desirability of adding either one
or both of the Classic Glider events (A-1 and A-2) to the National Cup
for Gliders for 2005. Input is especially desired from active
participants in the National Cup program. Some possible responses are:
Great Events - add both to the cup as separate events.
Add Classic A-1 Only.
Add Classic A-2 Only.
Don't change the Glider Cup for 2005.
Would also be good to get some feedback on the rules and any suggestions
on how to revise. Please expand beyond "I don't like them" with some
positive suggestions.
Bob Mattes
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RE: Classic Glider in National Cup
==================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Hi Bob,
Here is Stan and my response to your request.
We believe a SINGLE added towline event is best.
Two events would put undo pressure to build and fly new gliders and compete
within limited time frames at contests where Nat Cup points would be earnable.
Our feelings on the rules follow:
1. Open the Nat Cup Towline event rules to allow ANY towline glider to be used
on 50 meter line without weight or area limitation.
2. Delete the 15 second towing time limit.
It demands the timer be a 'policeman' and adds unnecessary elements and
actually penalizes those who CAN tow longer without circling.
It seems best to encourage excellence, not squelch it with tow time
limitations.
3. By definition, no circle on line or bunt allowed, but if done, just go get
it and refly without being charged an attempt. That should be enough penalty,
it seems to us.
4. I have no problem with using or deleting the BOM rule.
That said, Anachronisms fade away eventually. Why not sooner than later?
5. We like 3 minute maxes x 3 flights. Of course CD can revise the max to suit
field conditions as req.
FO maxes can increase, again at CD discretion.
We feel that keeping the rules SIMPLE will add to the interest of the event, as
each modeler can build and fly what he likes or has on hand.
Thank you for this opportunity to respond to what would be a fine addition to
the National Cup.
Sincere regards,
Stan Buddenbohm & Lee Hines
Power model
===========
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The model mentioned by Senor Manuel Blanco was the 'Raketa'(rocket) by
Vladimir Hajek. It was the first power ship which used an autostab for
competion flights. That was back in 1952. At that time, the countries in the
Eastern block ran contests they called"MMS" and national teams were made
upof 1 glider, 1 wakefield and one power model, all to FAI specifications of
course.
That must hhave been quite challenge being the sole rubber flier for your
country.
In the late 1950s and early 60s in Montreal, we ran a number of similar
events with other clubs, one was St. Albans in Englad I recall and very
enjoyable they were too. We ran ours in the evenings to avoid downdrafts!
Regards
Mike S
Junior Champs
=============
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I wonder if anyone of the large American or other group at the above Champs
has any photos of the activity, models, personalities in black and white for
use with my article for Vol Libre. B&W can be converted from color and
although the quality is not quite as good, it is very acceptable. If so,
could you send them snailmail or better email as attachments.
My address is: 41 Melbourne Court,Nuthall Road, Nottingham, NG8 5DE England
I wonder if anyone took a picture of the two tents which were use as
restaurant and control point as that was the focal point of the contest, and
would be very useful as anillustration.
I will be willing to defray any costs involved in the above.
On a quite different note, does anyone know where I can get a book with
colour illustrations of the Albatross D Va as it is verrty colourful with
many indiividual schemes. Guess what my next project is!
Regards
Mike S
Sky-Scraper Annual, October 16-17, for FAI, AMA, FAC, SAM
=========================================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Dear Free Flight Enthusiasts,
Below is event schedule for our big October contest in Wawayanda,
New York for FAI, AMA, Nostalgia, FAC, and Oldtimer events.
We are looking forward to a great time!
If it is your first time coming, note the directions also given
below.
Thermals,
Andrew Barron
P.S. For local fliers note that the current weekend (September 11-12)
has great weather, with very low winds forcasted from good directions
(from the Northeast on Saturday, then switching to be from the South
beginning mid-afternoon). Come out and fly. Today (Saturday) is a
Skyscraper Monthly. Reminder: there is a $5 field use fee at each
Monthly.
P.P.S. Today remember the many who lost loved ones when two prominent
New York sky scrapers fell on September 11 and others lost since then
defending freedom against terrorism. May the sky be free for all --
for their spirit, our spirit, and the work of our hands to soar with
the eagles.
__________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________________
SKY-SCRAPER ANNUAL
America's Cup and National Cup
FAI, AMA, Nostalgia, SAM, FAC
October 16-17, 2004
Barron, Ford, and Shuback Fields
Wawayanda, New York
FAI EVENTS:
Saturday October 16:
F1G (small rubber), F1H (small glider), F1J (small power).
120 second maxes. America's Cup competition.
Round 1: 9:30-11:00am
Round 2: 10:30-12:00
Round 3: 11:30-1:00
Round 4: 12:30- 2:00pm
Round 5: 1:30- 3:00pm
Flyoffs: 3:15pm --
Mini-FAI Awards at end of rounds for events complete at that time.
F1A/B/C Informal mass launch fun-fly (time own flight to ground)
5:30pm, 6:00pm (weather permitting)
Sunday October 17:
FAI events: F1A (glider), F1B (wakefield), F1C/F1P** (power).
America's Cup competition.
Round 1: 7:15- 8:30am Super max*
Round 2: 8:00- 9:30am 180 sec max (weather permitting)
Round 3: 9:00-10:30am
Round 4: 10:00-11:30am
Round 5: 11:00-12:30
Round 6: 12:00-1:30pm
Round 7: 1:00-2:30pm
Plan for an additional hour in case of delays for moves.
Flyoffs begin 15 minutes after rounds end.
*Note that round 1 begins at 7:15 rather than 7am, to permit
sufficient light, but ends at 8:30 rather than later to reduce
thermal opportunities during super-max round. Super-max to be
announced before round in accordance with conditions -- up
to 240sec for F1A and F1B and 300 sec for F1C/F1P.
Rounds overlap to facilitate retrieval.
**Note that F1P will fly 7 rounds alongside F1C, with same max.
Full 10 second motor run permitted for F1P.
FAI director: Andrew Barron (203-248-5386, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.)
Assistant FAI Director: TBA.
FAI fliers enter at Skyscraper table with Dave Acton, then turn
in scores between each flight at the FAI table or golf cart.
___________________________________________________________________
AMA, AMA CLASSIC, AND NOSTALGIA EVENTS
Saturday, October 16: 9:00am--5:00pm [Awards at 5:00pm].
Hand Launch Glider, ABC Nostalgia, ABC Classic, Mulvihill,
Nostalgia Rubber & Nostalgia Wakefield (combined).
Early Sunday:
Dawn Unlimited (Gather with Dave Acton at 7:10am for ground rules).
Launch window: 7:20-7:35am
Sunday, October 17: 8am to 3:30pm [Awards at 3:30pm].
Catapult Glider, 1/2 A Nostalgia, 1/2 A Classic Power,
P-30 Rubber, Pee-Wee 30 Power.
Overall Skyscraper Contest Director: Dave Acton (914-948-4234
and This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.) 89 N. Broadway, White Plains, NY 10603.
Assistant: TBA.
Open fliers pay $25 ($10 field use fee, plus $15 entry which covers
unlimited number of Skyscraper hosted AMA, NOS, and FAI events).
Juniors and Seniors pay $15 total ($10 field use plus $5 entry).
Awards: One wood trophy per sufficiently high finishing contestant.
Labeled plates which adhere to the trophy are awarded for each finish
in the top three in an event, and to best finishing Junior or Senior
in each event.
Dorothy Waddington trophy for best junior performance.
___________________________________________________________________
SPECIAL EVENT (hosted by Wilber and Orville Society)
Saturday, October 16: A1&A2 Classic Towline
Five flights (9:00am-5:00pm), no rounds.
Pay field use fee at Skyscraper table.
Turn in scores to Art Ellis or his designate.
____________________________________________________________________
FAC EVENTS (hosted by Skyscalers Club):
Saturday, October 16 (9am-5pm)
FAC Scale
Peanut Scale
Embryo
No-cal
Golden Age Scale (total of three flights)
FAC Old Time Gas Replica
Golden Age Racers Mass Launch (Greve & Thompson combined)
WWI Mass Launch (biplanes)
Sunday, October 17 (9am-3pm)
Jumbo Scale
Power Scale
Hi-Wing Peanut
Dime Scale
WWII Mass Launch
Modern Military Mass Launch
Flying Horde (any scale model)
Blur Race
FAC Event Director:
Tom Hallman 610-395-5656
FAC Assistant Director:
John Houck 610-488-6235
Show AMA membership, sign the Event Participation List,
and provide $15 which covers both days (including $10 field
use fee and $5 toward cost of trophies).
__________________________________________________________________
OLD TIMER EVENTS (Organized by SAM-7):
Sunday, October 17 (8am-3pm)
Pylon Gas (All classes combined)
Cabin Gas (All classes combined)
Rubber Stick
Rubber Cabin
Old-Time H.L.G. (Best 3 of 9 flights)
Engine Runs: (At CD Discretion)
Old Timer R.O.G. H.L.
Ignition 18 sec 14 sec
Conv.Ign. 14 10
CFS Glow 10 6
120 second maxes for all events.
Entry: $10 field use fee. No additional event fee.
Show AMA membership and sign the Event Participation List.
Certificate and applause for 1st and 2nd place winners.
FAC Event Director: John Stott
Address: Bradley Lane, Sandy Hook, CT 06482
Phone: 203-426-5190
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
The field is on Orange County Route 12, in Wawayanda, six miles
southwest of Route 17M near Middletown, NY. Nearby airports include
Newburg, NY (30 min from field) or White Plains, NY; Hartford, CT;
LaGuardia, NY; Albany, NY; Newark, NJ; or Wilks-Barre-Scranton, PA
(all of which are less than 2 hours from the field).
__________________________________________________________________
MOTORIZED VEHICHLES: Cars on farm roads, motorcycles on Dean
Ford Grass and at edge of each commercial strip of Barron Field sod
(within 3 or 4 feet of ditch, if ground is firm enough).
No motorized vehicles on the foot bridges. No motorized vehicles
in the corn fields and no motorized vehicles on the Lois Ford
fields and paths to the southwest.
Golf carts are permitted anywhere on commercial sod or
farm roads or grass areas, but not on foot bridges.
___________________________________________________________________
DIRECTIONS:
On Mapquest website, check Gardnersville and Pine Island, NY.
Field is open space between those two points.
[Note that Gardnersville, New Hampton, Ridgebury Hill, Slate Hill,
and Denton, are names of parts of the Township of Wawayanda.]
*From New York city, take I-87 to Highway 17 to exit 123 (labeled
Middletown), west on 17M for 3.5 miles, to Orange County Route 12
(at the New Hampton, Town of Wawayanda sign), then turn left,
heading southwest 6.3 miles. After Gardnersville Road, the Barron and
Ford fields are on the left at the Grain Silo.
[This takes about one hour from the Tappan Zee bridge.]
*From New England and from upper New York, take I-84 to exit 3,
Rt. 17M, go east 1.5 miles, then southwest (right) on County. Rt. 12
for 6.3 miles. Field is on the left. [About thirty minutes from
Newburg.]
*From Western New York take Route 17 to I-84, south 3 miles to
exit 3, Route 17M, go east 1.5 miles, then southwest on County. Rt.
12 for 6.3 miles. Field is on the left.
*From Pennsylvania and points south, take I-84 to exit 2, turn left
off the ramp and then go one mile to the northeast on Route 6, turn
right at the sign pointing toward Pine Island (onto County Route 1),
go six miles east on County Route 1 (through Westtown), then veer
left at the sign for New Hampton onto County Route 12. Go one mile
northeast on County Route 12. The field is on the right at the Grain
Silo.
________________________________________________________________
Check the following web site for other relevant matters.
http://www.brooklynskyscrapers.org
_______________________________________________________________
CAMPING ON FIELD IS ENCOURAGED:
Tents on soft grass, or sleep in one of the two sheds,
or camp in the vehicle of your choice.
_______________________________________________________________
HOTELS:
In approximate order of distance from field:
Days Inn on 17M in Middletown, exit 3, east, off I-84.
845-374-2411.
Price $70-80. Good quality. Closest to the field.
Global Budget Inn of America on 17M, also exit 3 off I-84.
845-374-3020.
Price approximately $70. Credit card does not guarantee room
with late arrival.
Super 8 at exit 120 off Highway 17 (exit 4, west, off I-84).
845-692-5828.
Price around $70-80.
Middletown Motel on Rt. 211, exit 120 off HWY 17 (exit 4W, I-84).
845-342-2535.
Price around $70-80.
Howard Johnsons, Rt. 211, exit 120 off HWY 17 (exit 4W, I-84).
845-342-5822.
Price around $80-90.
Chateau Hathorn, where Rt. 1A ends at Rt. 94, Warwick.
About 10 miles east of field
(drive through Pine Island on Rt. 1A and continue to Warwick).
845-986-6099 www.chateauharthorn.com
Price around $115 inc. tax, Jacusi in each room.
Fancy Bed and Breakfast. Same price but nicer than Holiday or
Hampton.
Holiday Inn at exit 4, east, off I-84, exit 122 off Highway 17.
845-343-1474.
Price around $110-125.
Hampton Inn at exit 4, east, off I-84, exit 122 off Highway 17.
845-343-3400.
Price around $115-126.
Courtyard Marriot at exit 4, east, off I-84, exit 122 off HW 17.
845-695-0606.
Price around $139.
Super 8, exit 5 off I-84. 13 miles northeast of Middletown.
Several Hotels at exit 6 off I-84, Route 17K.
18 miles northeast of Middletown. Including:
Clarion, Howard Johnson, Courtyard Marriot, Days Inn,
Comfort Inn.
There are also several Hotels at exit 1 off I-84 to the
southwest (Port Jervis) about 30 minutes from the field.
_____________________________________________________________
FAI Stickers
=============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
Lee recently asked me to make him some "FAI model registration" stickers
for the upcoming finals & WC. After i custom made some for him, i though
i put together a sheet of generic ones for anyone who is interested.
Please find the PDF attached. Since it is quite big, and not everyone
has a broadband connection, i suggest you can put it somewhere on the
scat websit and post a link.
To create stickers:
Go to any art supply or copy store and ask for "Drafting & Design Film".
I use "Chartpak" DAFPB8L transparent adhesive Letter sized sheets. these
can be printed on a laser printer. The resulting stickers hold up a
season or two.
Ff anyone has any questions, feel free to drop my a line.
have fun.
-r
[The attachement will be on the website]
F1B Rubber Questions and Answers from the NFFS BBS
==================================================
Author Message Ed Hardin
Posted: September 9, 2004, 11:03 am Post subject: F1B RULES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are the current rules for F1B as to the minimum model weight and maximum
motor weight. Also what would be the number of strands for a 1/8" wide motor.
How many turns could I expect to put in. Thanks
tljohnson42
Location: Wauconda, Illinois
Post subject: All FAI rules from FAI web Site
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are all of the FAI rules as published on the FAI web site.
http://www.fai.org:81/aeromodelling/documents/sc4.asp
Files download as PDF files and you will need Adobe Reader available as a
free download at
www.adobe.com
to open the downloaded PDF file.
_________________
Tom Johnson
RogerMorrell
Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posted: September 9, 2004, 11:48 pm Post subject: F1B Motors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The weight is 30 grams, lubed.
The number of strands depends on the trim of your model and the thickness of
the rubber. The thickness can vary within a box . make the motor up to
length. A good starting point is just under 14 inches. - not wound too tight
when making it up. The number of strands will be 26 or 28, possibly 24.
You should aim between 380 and 450 turns , again depending on the length
etc. and if the motor has been broken in or not.
Roger Morrell
Ed Hardin
Posted: September 10, 2004, 10:33 am Post subject: F1B
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the info. What is a good method for breaking in rubber motors, I
usually just lube them up and wind.
RogerMorrell
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posted: September 11, 2004, 12:14 am Post subject: Breaking in your motors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed
There are many ways of doing this. A common way of doing this is to stretch
the motor using a boat winch, large spring balance [100lbs], 20 foot beam
and measure. A typical approach is to stretch the motor
to about 80 pounds and hold it for 5 mins. Measure the length. This gives
an indication of the number of turns - you derive the formula your self
by trial and error!. Then and you let the motor back in you can take
further length vs tension measurements
To calaculate to total energy. There are articles in previous sympos by
such worthies as Fred Pearce, Jerry Fitch, etc who understand more than me.
I do a very simple test and measure the length at 80 and the length at 40.
the length at 80 helps me with the number of turns and the duifference between
the two with cruise energy. the higher number the better.
Roger Morrell
Canada Cup
==========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Canada Cup Sept. 4th - 5th. 2004
This year's Canada Cup was no exception. Challenging but good weather and
great atmosphere. Thanks to Hurricane Frances the flight-line had to be moved
on Saturday which resulted in the cancellation of two rounds.
However, it gave us a
chance to enjoy our Hungarian goulash which was cooked and served on the field.
Sunday the wind direction and velocity allowed us to complete ten rounds.
Because of the strong thermal activities, the Max was reduced to two and a half
minutes for the last three flights. We also had two junior competitors in F1A.
Mor Levy from Israel and Karin Pecherskaya from Montreal. It was nice to see
them competing against the seniors and to see Mor finishing fifth. To top that,
Mor also won the F1H competition.
F1A
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Total
1. C.Lenartowicz 180 180 237 180 180 140 180 95 180 150 150 150 2002
2. T.Tzvetkov 180 97 240 180 179 180 142 180 67 150 143 150 1888
3. I. Fradkin 118 180 166 180 104 147 165 180 180 150 81 127 1878
4. V. Nikolajevas 180 180 220 69 180 180 124 180 180 123 95 150 1861
5. M. Levy (Jr) 180 180 204 180 180 180 60 180 180 112 134 71 1841
6. A. Schlosberg 180 132 240 180 141 180 151 85 106 136 110 150 1781
7. R. Sifleet 180 180 240 156 180 180 180 134 93 26 150 77 1776
8. P. Allnutt 180 86 233 175 126 180 143 180 59 150 115 137 1764
9. J. Horak 180 180 64 177 180 180 119 95 180 150 86 130 1721
10. V. Sokolov 120 77 88 101 58 180 180 180 50 136 150 138 1458
11. L. Farkas 133 180 207 180 158 167 57 80 80 58 150 0 1450
12. K. Binns 56 180 132 145 53 180 180 43 107 146 0 0 1222
13. K Pecherskaya Jr. 0 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15
F1B
1. L. Horak 180 180 300 180 180 180 180 180 180 150 150 150 2190
2. R. Felix 180 180 282 180 180 180 180 180 180 150 124 150 2146
3. J. McGlashan 180 145 246 180 180 180 180 180 131 150 150 150 2052
4. T. Linkosalo 180 180 198 180 180 180 180 141 180 150 99 131 1979
5. T. Iorger 180 180 255 180 118 39 180 0 0 0 0 0 1234
6. D. Rowsell 0 0 0 0 0 180 0 156 0 0 0 0 336
F1C
1. R.Gutai 180 180 300 180 180 180 180 180 180 150 150 150 2190
2. E. Condon 180 180 300 180 180 180 180 147 180 150 113 150 2120
3. M.McMahon 180 173 204 180 150 111 180 180 180 150 150 150 1988
4. F. Schlachta 133 123 300 180 180 180 128 142 127 150 150 150 1943
5. R. Pecherski 0 24 0 87 82 139 120 130 131 134 132 96 1075
6. S. Arambasic 98 145 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 243
F1H
1. M. Levy Jr. 109 120 120 120 120 589
2. B. Sifleet 120 74 111 120 120 545
3. T. Linkosalo 120 120 0 120 120 480
4. P. Allnutt 0 0 0 0 0 0
F1G.
1. T. Iorger 120 120 45 0 0 285
F1J
1. B. Gutai 85 120 120 120 120 565
Leslie Farkas
Hold that Tiger!
================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Congratulations Amselmo!
Now do not look over your shoulder, because someone may be trying to catch you.
[FYI, That paraphases a comment attributed to the great baseball pitcher, Satch
el Paige.]
Keep up the great flying and keep the whip ready to hold the tigers back!
Ciao, bene,
Leeper
Lee Hines
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Classic Towline rules
=====================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Sweepette Lee got it right. Time on the line is a bad idea. We're all grown-ups
and we clearly understand what "No circle tow or bunt launch" means.
Timekeeper can make the call just like an overrun in power FF.
KISS, KISS, KISS.
BA
David Ackery and Re nos
=======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Thanks David. Glad I was able to help a little, along with Bill G.
It is amazing that F1B's etc fly so well with such low Re at the Tips ! I am
sure the professional Aero guys will clarify this but a couple of thing may
have some bearing on all this.
1. I seem to remember that at the tips the Re is a little higher than the
first estimate, due to the quite considerable cross flow there. This increses
the effective chord a little.
2. I think the situation is far more complex in that the Re No we talk about
is a kind of Average figure for the whole chord, whereas in fact the Re is
changing (Increasing)? at every point along the surfaces of the airfoil as it
progresses towards the TE. For example the Re say at 5% chord on the top
surface will be much lower because it is calculated on the length of chord up
to that point. However the Re No is then increased somewhat because the flow
velocity is higher there than it is further along the chord where the adverse
pressure gradient reduces the velocity because the dynamic pressure is getting
high again. Higher pressure and lower velocity is what causes seperation over
the rear 'diffuser' part of top surface of the airfoil. Can some of you
professional aerodynamicists elaborate and or correct this. For our purposes
an average Re No is a good guide but, like everything in life, there is a lot
more to it. Maybe it is the more complex view that explains why our models
work so well with such narrow tips.
Peter King
Re: planform
============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
> Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
> To clarify Manuel's comments below, I had mentioned in SCAT that there
was evidence that for low Re a rectangular planform with tips tapered for
the final 20% had some advantages. Somewhat the same observation is to found
in Martin Simon's book on Model Aerodynamics. <<
What when the wing is no longer straight to the incoming air...? I don't
imagine a wing is working as in the books, as soon there isn't a dead calm
morning. And certainly not in a circle-climbing motor ship. Then what
becomes the "elliptical" loading ? And the dihedralled tip airflow when the
model is facing a quarter-roll in a gust ? Lou Young started a study about
that in the Sympo 1975, Wing shaping for improved efficiency. As a rubber
flyer I love to have a tip leading edge which allows as high lift as
possible in strong sideslip situations, that is a rounded edge with positive
swept. Never a sharp corner... I would like to read some opinions about this
item... Amitiés. JW
F1j for sale.
=============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger.
I have one to many f1j and one has to go.
For sale.
Achterberg Six panel wing Odyssey f1j.
Cyclon 061.
Folding Prop.
Galbreath Engine Mount.
Selig Timer.
Weight 9 1/4 oz.
Never been crashed .
Flys exelent.
Ready to go for the october madness.
thx Don.
....................................
Roger Morrell
