SEN 773- January 21 2003

News and Reports 2003
SCAT Electronic News 21 January 2003 issue 773

Table of Contents
F1P = Pathetic - Biggles
Re: No Folding for Puppies SEN 772: - Biggles and/or M?
SWR Mini Report - Hines
Chase Bike for Sale - Simpson
Where is Mikey ? - Bruno
Rochnov ? - Abad
[Fwd: R/C-F1P -- It work's (1 MB-Download)] - Lorbiecki and Seren
renyolds wrap covering. - Wilkinson
Fwd: Re: F1P news by IMG - Wilkinson
F1P Construction - Lorbiecki
Cox Tank Supplier for Texas Cup - Fags
AJ Interceptor - Woods
Re: Diels Engineering, Inc.- Info Update
dh 82 tiger moth
Manito Plans: - Stalick
P is for Production - Beschasny

F1P = Pathetic
From: Biggles


* For SEN:

F1P = Pathetic - Commentary on the Junior Program

The problem of lack of Junior involvement in the power class (or the
other classes for that matter) is not lack of new designs, and
certainly not lack of an F1P class ! Perhaps it is just the reverse.
Too many choices, too much technology and too much cost (which also
intimidates all but those few dedicated competitors in the older age
group). And not enough focus in an event with their own peers, at
contests dominated instead by old geezers like myself, flying models
they cannot hope to afford.

So first let's recap on F1P so far after almost a year, and with only
6 months to go to the first F1P Junior Championships in Poland this
summer. Let's face it, F1P is a Lost Cause. This is an event
supposedly for Juniors where (unless they read SEN ?) no published
model plans are available, no kits are available, no ready to fly
models are available and no contests have been held or are currently
scheduled ! The event has not been publicized in Model magazines, or
in the Press, on Radio or TV, or on any Website, and no schools or
youth organizations have been informed, nor have National Aero Clubs
even notified their own Junior membership of it's existence. In
fact, none of the estimated 350 million eligible Juniors worldwide
stand any chance of finding out about F1P, and therefore we can
expect that participation by them will be almost zero. So, take it
from here you Juniors, off you go and make something happen ! What's
wrong with these kids today - they have absolutely no motivation to
succeed ! Let's not waste our time trying to help them any more !
If we were deliberately trying to dream up an event for Juniors that
was guaranteed to fail, then we could hardly be doing a better job !

But who can blame the Juniors ? The F1P rules as published are both
tricky and vague, even for those who speak English or French as their
native tongue. In the unlikely event that an F1P contest is ever
held, we have here unlimited room for filing protests against those
who knowingly or unknowingly violate the vagaries of such untried and
untested rules ! So why should any Junior ever bother to even risk
building one ?

For example, some model characteristics are defined and limited,
while others are specifically prohibited (for some obscure reason,
not explained in the rules ?). But there remains a huge grey area as
to the interpretation of the unclear intentions of ambiguous wording
as written. However, the rules are completely non-specific on what
is legal to use ? For example, Variable Incidence Tails (VIT) and
Auto Rudders are not specifically prohibited and therefore appear to
be "allowable", and yet the "one change of incidence or camber" rule,
clearly indicates that ONLY VIT OR Auto Rudder can be used, and NOT
both ! Even a traditional rudder tab is therefore prohibited because
it changes BOTH camber and incidence of the vertical fin airfoil, yet
only one change is permitted. An all-moving fin would appear to
circumvent this ruling, or some more complex device, hinged in such a
way as to permit the camber line to change while maintaining the
incidence unchanged ? Will electric timers even be permitted, which
are both inexpensive and would seem ideal for today's electronically
minded youth ? How can a Contest Director be expected to process a
model to ensure it complies with this strangely unique "one change"
rule, unless he has a means to access and interrogate the software ?
Or will models be limited to mechanical clockwork systems only, but
now that Seelig timers are no longer available how will Juniors find
a reliable timer ?

And what about fuel ? Certainly there is no limit set on Nitro (or
any other chemical additives for that matter ?) - 50%, 60%, 70%
Nitro, sure, no problem. Unless of course the organizers forget to
provide enough of it at the next contest (as is traditionally their
responsibility), for the competitors to mix their own special
concoction. For how else will any power flyer attending a contest by
air travel, be able to get his own "non-standardized" fuel to the
event, considering today's prohibitions applied to traveling with
such a liquid ? If the organizer fails this responsibility, then
sorry you cannot fly ! Perhaps F1P will degenerate into an event for
those individuals who can garner an advantage by successfully
shipping the most potent liquid brew to the next contest ?

And assuming you get some fuel, how will the motor run be timed now
that brakes are banned ? To the end of the exhaust noise, ie the end
of the power run as per all the AMA events held in the US, or to the
end of the propeller run-down, which is much more difficult for the
timekeeper to accomplish and is therefore much more prone to
inconsistency and error ?

And what about the "Guide for the Organizers of Contests for the
Outdoor Free Flight Classes", that is supposed to explain all these
procedures, has this document been updated for F1P. Has it been
circulated to Aero Clubs and Team Managers and even the prospective
Junior Team members already selected for 2003, and do they know what
to expect at this year's Championship ? No - the document currently
posted on the FAI website is a 1999 revision of the 1997 document, so
of course there is no reference even to the existence of F1P !

The real point here is that although model flying includes such
activities as the "game" of competition, like tennis, golf, darts or
ten pin bowling, using the model as technical equipment to outperform
others by use of judgment and skill, there is much more to be
experienced. It has taken the International modeling community over
50 years to reach the sophisticated development of technology in
structures, aerodynamics and mechanical and electrical systems
embodied in today's winning aeromodels. So too the new F1P class,
with it's own peculiar rules criteria, will inevitably follow a
similar path of increasing developmental complexity by those
dedicated experts and manufacturers. This will certainly prove a
rewarding challenge, for those remaining few who choose to pursue it.

But how does this help Junior participation worldwide ? Having to
buy a $1,000 manufactured model already trimmed for World Class
performance, just in order to even be competitive, does not help
develop a Junior's interest or knowledge of design and building
skills, or their understanding of the physics, engineering and
science involved in model aircraft and flight. Such a price tag will
immediately eliminate all but a handful of sponsored youths, and be
limited to just a few prosperous countries worldwide.

What a pity that the FAI did not take the time to solicit it's
worldwide F/F membership for imaginative ideas and solutions to
become pro-active and all-inclusive, by devising a meaningful Junior
event program that is best suited to teenage capabilities and
budgets, rather than one for the benefit and amusement of a few
senior modelers, for which the F1P event was evidently intended.

As a comparative example, a recent F/F event held in the UK attracted
over 150 entrants, with winning flight times of over 6 minutes ! It
was just one of 30 other competition classes held that weekend,
following less than 6 months advance notice. The contest was for a
one-design power model of approx 1 meter wingspan. When did anyone
now reading this commentary last compete in a F/F event with 150
entries for any class of model ? And that does not count those who
maybe didn't finish their model in time, or who were unable to attend
or who chose not to actually enter the contest on the day, but who
participated and benefited none the less in their own way. More
Juniors entered this one power event than entered the last Junior
World Championships ! (Or take the example of Graupner's Kleine UHU
small glider event, which at one time had 100,000 participants per
year in German schools and led to annual centralized National Finals,
even though the model design itself may have been rather unsuitable
in many details).

So why was this simple one-design concept so hugely successful ?
Perhaps the outcome demonstrates that the secret was that the
perceived expectation of the participants was equalized by limiting
them all to the same technology and level of effort, effectively
creating a "level playing field" to share the common experience.
Certainly all who participated benefited from building, trimming and
flying their own models, and yes, these recent UK rules even
permitted the use of models, borrowed or bought from others, to be
flown together in the same contest because there was no inherent
advantage to the outcome in so doing !

Therefore, why cannot the FAI re-direct their focus to encourage true
youth participation, by nominating a single-design entry level event
? This would limit the time being wasted by those Seniors currently
running in a dozen different design directions trying to re-invent an
F1P, and would help them focus their attention on assisting Juniors
to participate and succeed in this single goal. The model chosen
should be simple, functional and robust, with good performance that
is well suited to all-weather conditions and of course be
inexpensive. This Junior Program could be publicized through a PR
campaign and Press Releases from the FAI in each country. Detailed
plans, building and flying instructions illustrated with MPEG video
clips could be hosted on the FAI Website, and down-loadable instantly
anywhere in the world for free. The copyright for the selected
design would be freely available to all manufacturers, who could
produce their own hardware, detail components and prefabricated kits
for sale in any country, and even complete ready-made models could be
produced of this design for sale. Juniors could then participate
equally at whatever level of participation they choose, or can afford.

Design concepts that serve as a representative example of low cost
functionality and performance might include the Czech Mate / Junior
model, or any number of similar glider, rubber or power designs, that
would be selected by an appointed FAI Junior Program Committee.
These models could then regularly be flown by Juniors at any already
scheduled F1 contests (ABC or Mini), locally, nationally or
internationally, without adding to the task of organizers. Perhaps a
separate prize or just a paper certificate (as has been suggested by
others) could then be awarded to the top placing Junior in any such
event. For reference, the International Olympic Committee had a
similar one-design class for Sailplanes with the Olympia class
glider, in the days when soaring was an Olympic event. What a pity
that the FAI has not adopted the same idea today for Juniors.

So let's scrap this F1P nonsense before it drags on any further, by
appointing all the Nations F/F FAI Delegates to propose and vote down
this ludicrous and ill prepared idea at the upcoming March CIAM
Meeting. Instead, let's jointly put our heads together and devise a
meaningful program for Juniors, appropriate to their age, budget and
capabilities, that will excite their enthusiasm to actively
participate in an FAI event for aeromodels. If nobody is prepared to
invest in the future of model flying, there will be no future.
Perhaps it is still not too late ?

Re: No Folding for Puppies SEN 772:
Biggles or is it M?

On the contrary Messrs. Kaynes and Skyschemer/dreamer !

The more restrictive the rules, then the more ingenious and complex
will be the design solutions. And there's no doubt that the F1P
rules as written will encourage some very devious solutions !

But who said anything about folding the wing ? Why not fold the fin
(because traditional Auto Rudders are now outlawed) this way you can
vary the geometry for power versus glide turn, without any change of
either incidence (relative to the airflow) or camber, and that way
you still have one more function left to utilize ? Or why not fold
the pylon, which if parallelogram-ed, could provide a suitable change
in both cg position and moment arm, also without any change to either
incidence or camber of the wing (Wild Bill Skyking knows all about
this from his own power models of the '70's !) and you also still get
to use another function as well. Or you could fold the tailplane, to
vary the tail volume for power and glide. Or why not just fold
everything, including the F1P event !

SWR Mini Report
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Well, I am tired today after a packed weekend and long trips[Don drove
his 'bus'].
The weather was good, sunny, dry, warming to ~80-85F midday, with tricky
air that would collapse in mid flight at times.
Quite a large entry from all over were in attendance, with several good
friends there who I had not seen in quite a while.
On Sat, I dropped rd 6 in F1A that way.
Mike McKeever won FO in 9 min rd over Jim Parker and Hector Diez.
I won CLG with my newest glider[Batcat 18-2]scoring 423, which felt good
as only one other flier maxed out.
Rich Rourke was chuffed to win F1B in a nice FO.

F1H and OHLG was on Sunday and it got calm again midday with hardly any
lift for long periods.
Dallas won F1H, we left before the F1G and J FOs were over[after 4pm]
My F1H acted up...nufsed on it...but I started to fly my chuckies about
Well, I won it too, but did 117,112 and 120 for best three...never getting
over 80 ft high on any of them, I reckon!
We were all talking to our little hurlybirds to hang on to the bits of lift
they might be in. Sometimes we get frustrated and overthrow: some of the
young guys there I saw do that on their last flights...then I did it too!
Dallas Parker[who won it last year] and Jeff Ellington are who I mean.
I urge them to keep on the improving path, as they could be stars.
We drove back home into a beaut AZ Sunset, just as advertised.


Chase Bike for Sale
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

For Sale - Chase Bike

1981 Honda XL125S Motorcycle ------------ $695.00 o.b.o.

----- Full size bike, large wheels, 18" rear, 21" front, make it
perfect for retrieving at Lost Hills or Waegell field

----- No battery necessary, uses magneto to start and to run headlight,
perfect bike to store at Lost Hills.

----- Starts great, runs great
----- 4-stroke engine, runs quiet
----- Muffler and spark arrester in excellent condition
----- Seat recovered summer 2002
----- Good Knobby Tires, new tubes 2002

----- Clutch mounted for right hand, perfect for carrying models or
equipment in left hand. Can be easily put back on left hand if need be.

----- Motorcycle can be delivered to Lost Hills, if desired, at the Max
Men 14 Round Contest, February 2003.

----- Telephone Roger Simpson 1 (916) 686-1301
email This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Michael Achterberg?
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.


Does anyone have a current e-mail address for Michael Achterberg? The old
address: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. is apparently no longer good.

Steve Bruno

Rochnov ?
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I need email address of Mr. Rochnov.
I have heard he produces parts or kits for Free Flight.


[Fwd: R/C-F1P -- It work's (1 MB-Download)]
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Sori for the big files, but thought all of you may be interested in
what the Germans are doing- Pretty inventive way to test! Don't know if
Paul would mind the info being printed about, but will find out!

So, it looks like Germany will have a full team after having only one in
2002- Maybe F1P ain't so bad.....

John Lorbiecki

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: R/C-F1P -- It work's (1 MB-Download)
Date: 19 Jan 2003 20:01 GMT
From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. (Paul Seren)
Reply-To: <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
To: "John Lorbiecki"

Hi John and john,

today, we have had our first (simulated) flight with our F1P!
Yesterday we worked hard with finishing and covering.

For the first flight, we used my idea of "radio controlled adjustment", and thi
s had a very good result. The R/C equipment give app. 75 g more weight, but it
didn't make a measurable effect in gliding.

After the first hand-gliding test, we moved the F1P in to the air with a "hucke
pack"-model (look at the pictures).
In a hight of app. 100 m we released it and than we had a flight of nearly 5 mi

The first result:
The center of gravity was not correct (45%). So, i had to trim for an angle dif
ference about nearly 5°. I will put the the C/G now to 50% and reduce the angle
-difference to max 3°. The model ist not to fast, but it has a wide speed-range
, without being difficult to control.
Our wing is very heavy (170g), i have to reduce my "bomber-construction", in th
e moment the max. weight will be for the free-flying version 360g :-((.
But for the first test, i think we can now make some good experience.

What about your design? Do you now have some pictures? How are the F1P-building
-activities in USA?

We have now a good chance for building a complete german F1P-Team at the europe
an champs, there are now 2 other "pilot-fathers" building F1P.....

hear you soon ....

Paul Seren

renyolds wrap covering.
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

rodger do you or anybody else out there in freeflight
land know anything about covering a model with
renyolds wrap plastic wrap.
i saw several small radio ships covered with it.
be real light for a stab on a f1j.
thx don.

Fwd: Re: F1P news by IMG
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

rodger here is the latest e mail i got from oleg on
his f1p.
thought this would answer your question about buying
one at the mmm meet.
thx don.
Note: forwarded message attached.

Thank you message .
I think build first 3-5 model in March.
Price about 320$

F1P Construction
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Well, it now seems like we have gotten to the point that F1P is an event
that we will take somewhat seriously. Mr Salzer wrote about his
construction techniques and I thought I would just throw in what we did
on the model we built- still untested as it is 9 degrees outside with a
wind chill close to zero!

The basic wing is built around a 3/16" wide carbon/ balsa/carbon spar.
We did not wrap it with kevlar, even though we probably should have. The
main structure is of geodetic construction, 1/16" balsa ribs. The
trailing edge is .02 x .12 wide carbon with .003" (or so) thick carbon
used only on the straight ribs. The leading edge is 1/4" square. The
wing tips have a taper on both leading and trailing edges. The airfoil
is a 6.8% flat bottomed airfoil. Did this because we were lazy and
wanted to build something fast to try. The wing is a two piece affair,
with an 1/8" diameter wire or carbon rod. We covered the center with
Icarex and the tips with mylar. Just trying to keep them lighter.

The stab is built the same and covered with mylar also. It weighs about
9 grams.

The fuselage is the only structure in which we went a little nuts. The
tail boom is one of the small diameter alum/carbon/alum booms from
Oleg. The front end is a molded carbon deal, with integral pylon. The
engine mount is our typical turned aluminum mount for the Cyclon and
epoxied into the front . The fin is built up balsa and carbon, mounted
in front of the stab. It uses the typical torsion bar for the rudder

All told, with a Verbitsky folder and Seelig timer, it is 270 grams. Add
a bladder and radio and we will be in the 280 gram range.

Keep it up! If we want more kids into this deal, we need to have
something for them to compete with. The scary thing we see is that with
all of this action, John and Austin will really need to fly up to their
known capabilities. I have seen many times people come out of the
woodwork and have great success. With all the knowledge on the left
coast, we middle and right coasters may be in for the fight of our
lifes! John is looking forward to testing the F1P and thinks it may have
something going for it. Again, as I said before, we need to deceminate
the information as much as possible, especially designs (3 views, plans,
etc.). This is what inspires many to build-we need to see what others
are thinking to get the gray matter going.

John Lorbiecki

Cox Tank Supplier for Texas Cup
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

In the announcement of the 2003 Texas Cup Competition, My address and telephone
number was listed incorrectly as the supplier of the CM10 Cox Tank mount.
I still supply the Tank Mount for immediate delivery for $15.00 plus $1.00
My correct address is a follows:

Kevork K. Fags Tel; (201) 664-2606
236 Thayer Street
River-Vale, NJ 07675-6235 (e-mail) This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I would sincerely appreciate any correction you my make.


Kevork K. Fags

AJ Interceptor
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I have been trying for years to remember how that folding wing assembly =
worked. Can you send me a sketch as attachment to Email? I can also =
receive FAX if you call and warn me to it.
Bob Woods
(Robert O. Woods P.E., Ph.D.)
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
(505) 299-6928
(505) 720-8492 (Cellphone)

New mailing address:
11921 Caribou Ave., NE
Albuquerque 87111

Re: Diels Engineering, Inc.- Info Update
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Please revise your info to read as follows:

At 02:10 AM 01/15/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>Diels Engineering, Inc. manufacturers a line of rubber powered free flight
>scale kits and plans. Incorporated in 1986 we are a small cottage
>operation. We now have a line of soon to be 37 kits and over 80 plans. We
>try to offer things not generally found anywhere else with a few exceptions.
>We have received many reviews and recommendations over the years in Flying
>Models Magazine and the former Model Builder Magazine. Anyone wishing a
>catalog may send me your reular mailing address and I'll send a free
>catalog to USA and Canadian customers. Overseas send $2 to cover airmail costs
>Our address is:
>Diels Engineering, Inc.
>P.O. Box 263
>Amherst, OH 44001
>My business e-mail address for correspondence or catalog requests is:
>This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
David G. Diels
Diels Engineering, Inc.
P.O. Box 263
Amherst, OH 44001
E-mail This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

dh 82 tiger moth
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

request info about aeromodel dh 82 tiger moth,if this type is available =
,the cost of the kit ,the way to order it .
on behalf of corfou airport manager ,greek civil aviation authority.
thanks in advance
kostas skiadopoylos

Manito Plans:
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Manito Plans:
Roger Simpson notes that the Manito would be a good F1P model with an
extended wing. I agree, but I would like to point out that the full sized
plans are also available from NFFS Plans Service at $7.00 per set postpaid.
Support the Freeflight Society and buy your plans from Hank Sperzel, the
Plans Man, 203 Chevro Lane, Bellevue, NE 68005.
Also, no one has yet answered my question about F1P flyoff rounds. Do the max
time increase or the engine runs decrease?
Any answers out there?
Bob Stalick

[According to the latest Sporting Code from the FAI Web Site the flyoff
is a 10 minute window with the max increasing by a minute each time. ]

P is for Production
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Dear Roger,
I do plan to bring with me some of F1P to MaxMen. We do even build a nice motor for them .It mounts to fuselage like Cyclon!

Roger Morrell