SEN 661 - 2 Jan 2002

SCAT Electronic News 2 January 2002 issue 661

Table of Contents
King Orange International Results- Bradley
Re: computer virus - encore
FAI Poll - Hanford
Cost of F1 Models - Gewain
F1 Economics - Aringer
Brain fade. - Woodhouse
America's Cup 2002 Calendar Updates Needed! - Coussens

Subject : King Orange International Results-(Jim Bradley)
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2001 King Orange Results

1. Bob Sifleet 1290
2. Brian VanNest 1258
3. Jon Schelp (Jr) 1241
4. Jim Bradley 1237
5. Steve Spence 1231
6. Mike Fedor 1176
7. Lee Hines 1174
8. Andrew Barron 1163
8. Harry Grogan 1163
10. Joshun Revkin (Jr) 1098
11. Tom Jones 892

1. Bill Booth 1590
2. Paul Crowley 1579
3. Ryan Jones 1277
4. Blaine Miller 1266
5. Tom Ioerger 1237
6. Rex Hinson 1191
7. John Barron 1144
8. Dick Wood 1140

1. Ed Keck 1740
2. Bob Johannes 1721
3. Bob Gutai 1709
4. Henry Spence 1364
5. Joe Wagner 1188
6. Bob Sifleet 934

1. Dick Wood 576
2. Tom Ioerger 556
3. Dick Ivers 545
4. Bill Booth 480
5. Ray Combs 468
6. John Barron 444
7. Charlie Jones 216
8. Ryan Jones 119
9. Jim Juhl 113
10. Rex Hinson 34

1. Bob Sifleet 572
2. Brian VanNest 567
3. Lee Hines 529
4. Tom Jones 478
5. Rich Ivers 470
6. Vic Nippert 440
7. Bill Staley 360
8. Garren Malin 202
9. Jean Pailet 191
10. Joshun Revkin 187
11. Steve Spence 120
12. Jim Juhl 108

1. Bob Johannes 900 (won coin toss)
2. Gil Morris 900
3. Bob Gutai 542
4. Jean Pailet 528
5. Tom Kerr 340
6. Ed Keck 240
7. Bob Perkins 211
8. Mike Fedor 33

Re: computer virus - encore
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Just after I sent out SEN commenting on the suflnbk hoax
I got e-mail from another subscriber talking about it.
So here is another comment from someone else commenting
on it .. and givin a source with information on how
to ghet what you deleted !

To all,
Basically this is a HOAX virus, I heard about it a few weeks ago.
Full details are at
Here you will also find the replacement instructions for the windows
component sulfnbk.exe should you have already deleted it!

FAI Poll
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Roger, Could you possibly post this on the SCAT Website, to reach as many
flyers as possible? I am particularly interested in hearing from members of
the FAI community who have been to the Muncie site, since they would know
best of the limitations of that site. Anyone wishing to respond should send
their comments directly to me, so that you won't have to handle or forward
them. Thanks, Bob


I am conducting an informal survey among known FAI flyers who have competed
at the Muncie flying site. Most of your names were obtained from the results
of both the large and small FAI events at the 2001 NATS. As you may know,
the AMA Executive Council is proposing to move the Free Flight NATS out of
Muncie on the off years of the World Championships in order to hold an all
FAI event contest. Although the actual verbage of the proposal has been
requested, it has not yet been received, but the basic content of the
proposal is shown below, from the District VIII website:

On behalf of Sandy Frank, AMA District VIII VP, Bill Lee, that district's
Web master, sent the following message to district clubs, asking for input:

"As presented at the Oct. 2001 AMA council meeting, I am soliciting your
input here and now!

"Following conversations with competitors of the Nats and FAI communities,
as well as others who feel AMA has lost a lot of exposure as a result of
moving the Nationals to the Muncie site, the President offered the following
as food for thought.

"To change the entire scheduling and concept that we have of our Nats. To
run the combined Nats as we now know it, every other year and in the off
year run a pure FAI event.

"The President offered the following example: In even years in Muncie, we
would run scale, pylon, control line and electric Nats; but in that year
traveling somewhere else would be helicopter, pattern and free flight Nats.
(Indoor would be at Johnson City that same year.) In that particular year we
would run as pure FAI events in Muncie helicopter, pattern and free flight.
The idea being in years opposite the world championships we would have the
pure FAI events in Muncie.

"This would get the Nationals back on the road and generate more exposure
and hopefully create more activity and interest in FAI events.

"The President appointed an ad hoc committee to look at this concept. The
committee consists of Chairman Charlie Bauer, Sandy Frank, Bob Brown and
Steve Kaluf. A report will be made at the next meeting."

In a subsequent correspondence with AMA President Dave Brown, he states the
following as the objectives of this proposal:

For FF, for example, I'd say it would be likely that the FF Nats would be in
Muncie on the odd years, and alternate between Palm Bay, and Lost Hills
(effectively a 4 year cycle for those sites) in the even years.
Example...2001 Muncie, 2002 Lost Hills, 2003 Muncie, 2004 Palm Bay, etc....

This would impart two advantages to the FF community. First, it would allow
more members to take part in a Nats, when it was held nearer their home.
Secondly, it would allow the Muncie site to be used to host a significant,
international class FF event (Open International, or Continental
Championships?) every other year (in the year opposite the World
Championships), thereby giving those who have an interest in the
International aspect of competition an opportunity to compete in an
international event. I see this as a win-win situation. What do you see as

The purpose of this poll is to gather facts to present to the committee about
how the FAI Free Flight community would respond if this proposal passed.
When discussions began among the AMA contestants, several commented that
Muncie would not be a viable site for the inevitable flyoff rounds of a
international competition, and that repeated retrievals into adjoining
farmer's crops may endanger future access and use of the field by free
flighters. These are serious concerns, and were instrumental in the
initiation of this survey.

Although this survey is being requested of both large and small FAI event
contestants, your answers should pertain to the large events only, since they
would presumably be the only events held at a pure international FAI contest.

1. Were you one of the NATS/FAI competitors involved in the conversations
with the Executive Council about this proposal?

2. Were you aware that the Executive Council was considering this proposal?

3. Do you think that the Muncie flying site is adequate for hosting an
international competition?

4. Do you think that such a contest would create more activity and interest
in FAI events?

5. Do you think that the Muncie flying site would attract international

6. Would you attend the FAI contest at Muncie, in the off years of the World

7. In which of the FAI events would you participate?

8. Do you favor returning to a rotating site location for the AMA Free
Flight NATS?

9. Do you think that the rotating site would increase participation?

10. Do you think that Palm Bay is a suitable location for a mid-summer NATS,
so that Juniors, Seniors, and those with careers in education would not be

11. Do you think that Lost Hills is a suitable location for a mid-summer
NATS, so that Juniors, Seniors, and those with careers in education would not
be excluded?

12. If the Free Flight NATS remained each year in Muncie, and the proposed
FAI meet was held separately on the week immediately before or after the
NATS, would you attend the FAI meet, the NATS, both, or neither?

Please add any other comments or observations that you feel are pertinent to
this proposed action. Since I have such a limited number of known addresses,
please forward or distribute this survey to other flyers, particularly to
those in the FAI community who have been to the Muncie site.

Your input is greatly appreciated and will be essential to evaluate the
projected results of this proposal as it pertains to the Free Flight
disciplines. The next EC meeting will be held in February, so please respond
early enough to allow time to tabulate results and formulate an appropriate
response to the Committee. I will also be glad to forward to you the
correspondence that has been exchanged with Committee members, if you are

Thank you for your thoughts in this most important matter,

Bob Hanford
1608 S. Poplar Ave.
Broken Arrow, OK 74012-5115
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Cost of F1 Models
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The cost of F1 models is high compared to what it cost to fly a competitive
model ten years ago, but in terms of what they would cost today in US
dollars if these modes were built in the US these models are very
inexpensive. That is why many model builders in the US buy models. For
model flyers in other countries the cost of these same models is very high
in terms of the average income, these model flyers should be building
models. There isn't any magic in the models built in the Ukraine and Russia
just skill, experience and craftsmanship in model building. If your time
is to valuable to develop these abilities then you should buy models and if
the cost of the models is high to you build them. The important part is
that you enjoy the sport, the costs will always be higher than they were ten
years back, but they are manageable.

The cost of geared motors for F1C will come down in 5 to 10 years because
the same laws of aerodynamics that apply to F1C apply to all other model
racing and speed events. In that time all the other events will discover
the advantage and all racing motors will be built with a gearbox.

The overall cost of a F1 model will continue to climb because other
innovations will come along which will add cost to the models. Some of the
new technologies might be folding wings and variable pitch props on F1C
models or the next generation of electronic timers on all F1 models. These
innovations can be built by a model builder with the right skills or
purchased at a cost that others will say is to high.

Matt Gewain

F1 Economics
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Hi Roger, hi to everybody,

I hope you have had some nice christmas days.

I see now the discussion about F1C starts into this strange way again. I
only want to make 3 points of my view clear:

1. to Aram Schlosberg:

When I read the following part

"The unique characteristic of F1Cs is the crucial importance of the
engine's performance. In other words, technology dominates. The
geared engine, which took many years to develop and perfect, gives
a flier an advantage in placing (see Aringer's WC tabulation in SEN).
Most serious F1C fliers want a reasonable podium chance, which
today really requires a geared engine - at least for the flyoffs."

of your letter I must say:

The WC tabulation shows, that a gearbox was not necessary to win the last WC
(think it over)!!!!

2. to Roger Simpson

Banning gearboxes from F1C is totaly the wrong way. I think you are 100%
right that the cost of what we are doing is not the cost of this one part.
If we forbid the developement in this way we should forbid all kinds of
development and we should stop flying F1, because than we can go to the old
classes and definitions from the 60th (or something like that).

3. short analysis of costs

The following lines show a rough calculation of the costs I have had in

location kilometers travel expenses other expences

norway 2.000 1.120 DM 180 DM
Sezimovo 1.400 784 DM 150 DM
Ungarn 2.500 1.400 DM
Ungarn 2.500 1.400 DM
France 2.000 1.120 DM 50 DM
Egeln 700 392 DM 150 DM
Egeln 700 392 DM
Zylpich 350 196 DM
WC USA 1.500 DM 1.200 DM
Switzerland 1.600 896 DM 300 DM

Salzburg 1.500 840 DM 150 DM
Wien 2.200 1.232 DM 150 DM
Finkenstein 1.900 1.064 DM

Leutershausen 900 504 DM

This rough calculation shows that I used about 35.420 DM (16.100 USD) for

The investment in new models and spareparts was about 4.500 DM (2.045 USD)

This was only an average world cup season with an expensive WC in USA (bad
USD-DM-relation), a normal Austrian qualification and a normal investment in
new stuff (about 11% of the total cost). To start a discussion about gear
boxes by using the argumentation of costs is definitly not the right way.

By the way please don't tell my wife how expensive modelflying is !!!

Have a nice new year

yours Gerd

Brain fade.
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Your help please. On the times when I have been to Lost Hills I have rather
admired the holding frames that the F1C flyers leave their models in, neat
little gadgets made from plumbing materials. I thought that I would make
one for my F1B's. I thought I knew what was required, then I took one look
at the range of plastic pipes, bends and accessories in the local DIY store
and my mind went blank! I checked all pictures that I could find but there
was no enough clarity. Could some kind F1C person let me have some sort of
sketch that I could use as a basis please?


Mike Woodhouse

Brain dead in the UK


They are also used by some F1A flyers and by some R/C glider flyers
too. ]

America's Cup 2002 Calendar Updates Needed!
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Below is the list of contests on the 2002 schedule with known dates. CD's out
there who are in the know, please email Tom Coussens at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
t with dates as well as CD names if they have changed from last year.

Southwest Regionals- Eloy ,AZ 1/19-21
MaxMen 14 Rounder- Lost Hills, CA 2/15-17
SCAT Annual- Lost Hills, CA 3/9-10
Eastern FF Champs, Ingleside, MD
Spring Cup- Seguin TX 4/27-28
NorCal FF Champs- Sacramento, CA 4/27-28
FFAMS, Muncie IN Skyscrapers
FAI Challenge- Wawayanda NY
Big Al's- Lost Hills, CA 5/25-27
Texas Cloud Climbers, Allen TX
McLaughlan Fiesta 5 Flags - Pensacola, FL 6/15-16
Intercity FAI Muncie, IN
MMM 14 Rounder-Denver, CO
Huron Cup- CFB Borden, Ontario Canada
US Outdoor Champs (NFFS)- Muncie, IN
NW FF Champs, Tanget, OR
Empire State FF Champs, NY
Canada Cup, Camp Borden Canada
Chicago Aeronuts-Muncie, IN
Western FAI Challenge- Harts Lake, WA
Dynasty Cup-Denver, CO
Calif. FAI Invit L.H. CA 10/5-6
Sierra Cup- Sacramento, CA 10/12-13
S.W. FAI Challenge, LasVegas, NV 10/19-20
Skyscrapper Annual,Wawayanda, NY 10/19-20
Autumn Cup USAF Aux Field- Seguin, TX 11/9-10
USFF Champs / Patterson, Lost Hills, CA TBD
PMAC FF Champ AZ 11/30-12/1
King Orange Intl- Palm Bay, FL 12/28-29

Roger Morrell