SEN 753 - 5 Nov 2002
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SCAT Electronic News 5 November 2002 issue 753
Table of Contents
=================
rocketing down to So Cal - Rocket Ron
zing wing fun!! - Kev
Rubber Ruminations
Tan II further update - Clapp
Stretching a Point - Editorial
Gluing Gummi - Mathews
Tanning Two - Willis
Tan II - Markos
No Chicken Little - Crowley
Rubber, all is not lost - Hinson
Tan II Comment - Shailor
Tan II phase out proposal - Bennet
New Rubber - Schroedter
I've been trying - Roberts
Fly Planes - Bashaw
John's new Wheels - Woodhouse
Rubber Supply Answer - Lorbiecki
Math problem - Segrave
rocketing down to So Cal
========================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Scat
Don
Vasi
Looks like Rocket will be coming down for the FF champs and the
Patterson, finely a contest!!!!
I am looking for a couple of stabs for Visilie's Bunt Bone F1A for sale,
trade, borrow, or steal. I have built one for my self but one can't go
wrong with the real deal.
Email or call
thanx
Rocket Ron
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
1-907-439-4949
zing wing fun!!
===============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Unsure if any of you are aware of these small flying wings and in a day when
everything is so serious, then they are a pure pleasure to have a variation
in the box and to have a few flights with.
I came accross them by accident after seeing one fly, was amazed by it, then
admit to forgetting about it due to moving house etc. My father was here in
the UK and left last week - whilst he was here we went to the local model
shop, picked one up for a couple of quid and went to have a go. The kit
comes complete with everything for sending a catapulted wing skyward. Model
is made from some sort of polystyrene, it is hand manufactured in the USA
and you basically hook it up, pull back the rubber and fold back the wings
and send it skyward. The climb is fast and as the speed bleeds off, the
tension of a small elastic band (supplied in kit) pulls wings open in a
split second and it glides.. and glides .. and glides.
We had a terrific time - went and bought another yesterday and was seen at
14.30 today back at the same field, our three year old son with me who was
very taken by them & racing after them until it got too dark to fly and him
too tired to run.
Models come in various shapes and sizes as well as colors - have flourescent
tips for ease of visibility and are brilliant fun. You cant ask for more
for what I believe is less than $5.00 US can you.
I understand that the company that makes them is updating things like the
handle and this can only be a good thing.
At the end of the day, when all the seriousness has gone out of a
competition, I would strongly recommend a model or two to lighten the
afternoon with.
It may get youngsters involved with them and then onto the likes of bigger
catapult models and hlgs and from there on - the world of free flight
seriously opens up. They have a web site - www.zingwing.com
and I understand are easily available in the USA
Best wishes to you all and hope you are having a weekend full of thermals
and every flight dts when it should.
Kev
Rubber Ruminations
==================
Tan II further update
=====================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
A. We have been in touch with Dan Tracy and Ian Kaynes regarding the Tan
II situation.
B. We have discussed: rubber weight, and color coding, concern for
those who do not have a stock pile
of Tan II, and the continued growth of the sport world wide.
C. My rubber company is not the culprit. Goodyear (key supplier of a
critical ingredient to produce Tan
II) had to cease production due to the total demise of the need
for an additive required for quality rubber thread for golf balls.
D. Remember back to when we bought FAI MODEL SUPPLY, many were convinced
that the " end of
the world" was at hand! A UK rumor at that time was that the new
owner was not interested in the continuation of Tan II.
E. We are very concerned about a " level playing field" and will try to
make it such!
F. We suggest that everyone "take a deep breath" and let us see what we
and our factory can do.
Best regards and thanks for your support . John
Stretching a Point
==================
Editorial
Last weekend a number of people tested F1B with the "Sport" rubber.
The results were interesting and the models performed better than
some of the static tests indicated. As expected the cruise
performance was off but not was much as expected and no worse
than some batches of Tan II I have had in the past. I found
it necessary to re-trim the model slightly. I fly Vivchar models
so I changed the thrust shim from .33mm to .45mm to give more right thrust.
I also shorten the intermediate rudder position, simple
with an electronic timer. I am not kidding my self
it is still not as good as Tan II.
Secondly we found some sheet/strip rubber from another source,
we have not done any signficant testing so cannot report
any results - but it comes in black, red and green !
I have been horrified to read of suggestion that we fly with
different rubber weights based on the type of rubber. There
are clearly signficantly different levels of energy that
come from different batches of Tan II or Pirelli, or Filati or
whatever in the past - we never tried to control this.
There are people - Including FAI model supply who
have stocks of not quite so good Tan II - may be down to the level
of Tan Sport - why preclude these people from using this rubber
by introducing some handicap system ? There is no doubt that
our market is small and there are issues with making
special rubber for us - but the current rubber company is working
with John Clapp on improvements and there are possibilities
of alternative sources.
Finally I was very concencerned to see that FAI Model Supply
was having talks with the FAI about the future of our event.
I feel that this is not appropriate, FAI Model Supply is commerical
enterprise not our governing body. We need to conduct any discussions
in an open forum - remember the F1P episode.
Gluing Gummi
============
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SCAT user wrote:
Gummi Gossip
What was that sound I just heard? I think it was the sound of hundreds (thousan ds?)
of rubber fliers' jaws dropping!
No more TanII? Yikes!
A word for Mr. Clapp: there are a large number of highly talented and motivated
customers out there that would be happy to help in any way possible. I'm sure t hat
within the ranks of rubber fliers there are all sorts of technical people that
could be used as a resource to help solve this problem. If the magic ingrediant is
no longer available, perhaps a substitute could be found or made? Or perhaps th
is
ingrediant is used in some sort of other industry, even as a precurser? I'm sur
e
that there are many others like me that would be willing to volunteer time and
energy to do some research on your behalf. Don't be afraid to ask us for some h
elp!
Tony Mathews - (who is frantically tying knots in his rubber!)
Tanning Two
===========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
RE...Tan II.....Unless I have missed something, no one has quantified this
market. In order for the technology to be focused on our problem and money
invested to produce a product...someone needs to quantify the markets revenue
potential based on one or two price points per pound produced. Don't assume
the current producer has done this well. Before anyone tries to help us with
a product of similar quality they need to know how much pre-tax revenue is
there........
Roger L. Willis...Scale Staffel, San Diego
Tan II
=======
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Well here we go again. Now that it appears that the F1B community won't be
able to fly their models as well as they used to once their supply of good
rubber is no longer available, calls for a rules change emerge. I, for one,
would like to see some comparative flight data from models flown with Tan II
vs FAI sport rubber. We modelers, in spite of the wealth of scientific
background we bring to our sport, have a tendency to promulgate rules
decisions based more on emotion than on science. As the research director at
the company I recently retired from was fond to say, "In God we trust,
everyone else bring data!"
I would be somewhat ironic if, by being forced to use 30 grams of FAI sport
rubber, one objective of the recent reduction from 40 grams would be
accomplished: Determination of the winner after only 7 rounds of flying.
Also perhaps, the event could be flown effectively on fields that seem to be
shrinking in size.
The information currently being circulated is that Tan II cannot be
manufactured because one of the ingredients is no longer available. My
experience, from a chemistry career of 35 years, is that there are dozens of
chemical suppliers who will produce just about any reagent if the price is
right.
Chuck Markos
No Chicken Little
=================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Hey F1Bers the world DID NOT END last week! The sky is NOT falling! Lets be
very careful when we suggest changes to the rules. We have no idea where
this is going. If the past is any guide to the future we may end up with a
better product then we have now. Every time rubber changed in the past it
got better. I know this is no guarantee that it will happen again but lets
give John ( with his present or some other source) a chance before we ask
for something we may regret later. Slow down please.
Yours truly,
Paul Crowley
(50 years of F1B)
Rubber, all is not lost
=======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
BlankI recently went to the local office supply, purchased a small box
of #33 rubber bands. Came home, weighed out 30 gm. I looped all of the
bands together, lubed and wound to 300 turns at 100 in oz. Not bad. The
sky is not falling. The models just don't get as high.
I think there is too much panic about the rubber. Sure there will be
problems between those that have Tan II and those that do not.That can
be overcome by the 30 gm vs. 40 gm proposals. FAI will police itself,
however, the oldtimer, AMA event crowd does not have an effective way of
handling things like P-30, Mulvihill, and all of the oldtimer rubber
events.
I don't think anyone should be too critical of FAI Model supply for
protecting their source and formula. Without John's dilligence we would
not have seen the great advance in our sport. I am sure John has had to
accept losses on several occasions when a long awaited batch turned out
to be unusable for our flying.
We will get over this problem. The hobby may wind up being better for
it.
Anyone want my last box of may 99? JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rex Hinson
Tan II Comment
===============
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I have to agree with most of the comments on the rubber situation. First,
John Clapp has to be commended for his efforts and perseverence.
That said, I am interested in how responsibly our FAI governing body will
respond. Hopefully, it won't be with the apparent fear of perfomance/let's
keep the organizers happy mentality that got us to a 30 gram motor weight in
the first place. As I said then, and repeat now, this only places a premium
on good rubber and store-bought parts. Now, the difference will be even more
significant.
I am confident John and the supplier will work this out. We need to avoid
making decisions based on panic. Getting reasonable correlations between Tan
II and the Sport or Super Sport rubber will give us some standards of
comparison.
Until then, let's all remain calm.
Bill
Tan II phase out proposal
=========================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Tan Sport supposedly tests about 10% ER less than Tan II, which puts it
somewhere between Tan I and Tan II. Long time ago Walt Ghio (I think) warned
30 gram rule seemed premature. To go back to 35 grams would be a 16% power
increase--more than recouping the difference of Tan Sport. If Tan Sport can
be made different color, make first round and FLYOFFS Tan Sport only, and Tan
II can be used otherwise. Gives the newcomers (both of them) a little bit
more parity where it would most count. Some of us (like me) manage with an
even greater than 10% disadvantage at all times, but that's hereditary.
Mark Bennett
Sacramento
New Rubber
==========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger:
I have written this before, but it bears repeating. The problem with
getting another source for rubber strip comparable to Tan II is not that
it can't be made. It is that rubber manufacturers are not interested in
selling it in the small quantities that we buy. In the late 80s and
early 90s I sold Champion Rubber. It was made by the same company that
made the gray FAI and Sig rubber. No difference other than the usual
variations between batches. That company told me over and over again
that there was no point in their investing in research to develop a
better product for us, because with the quantities they were selling,
they would never recover their R&D costs.
It is a miracle that the present company is willing to do as much for us
as it does. We can surely thank John Clapp for that.
George Schroedter
I've been trying
================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Since hearing about the problems that my friendly F1 B flyers have been
having obtaining rubber to provide downwind targets for those of us
flying power; I have spent the last year trying to do my part. I
changed to partially wound (I could not find totally wound) golf balls
and have been hitting them in the woods or water as fast as I can as
reflected in my scores. Perhaps we could all create additional demand
for rubber if we played a little more golf while the epoxy dries, but we
must be careful to use only balls that have a wound core.
Just wanted our friendly competitors flying F1 B that the power guys are
trying to look out for your interests. Four!!!
In Jest, but wish you the best of luck.
Mike Roberts
Fly Planes
==========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Recently I told a few of my neighbors about making fly planes and they
all told me I sniffed too much glue. We used to glue a tissue streamer
on a fly for kicks also. I would like some of the "older" modelers to
think back----where did the article appear, Air Trails or Model Airplane
News? And if anyone would be so kind to first find the article, then
copy it and send it to me, I would appreciate it. My email address is:
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Snail mail is: 450 Sunwest Dr. #71, Casa
Grande, AZ. 85222 Marv Bashaw
John's new Wheels
==================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
John
Just can't resist! I assume that the new bike is faster John in order to
facilitate your escape?!
Michael J Woodhouse, Norwich, UK.
Rubber Supply Answer
====================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The answer to all the rubber supply inadequacies is:
Nelsons, Cyclons, and Rossis- We need more power flyers!!
Sorry to those that love twisted rubber bands.......I know you will find
an answer.......
John Lorbiecki
Math problem
============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I have been doing some research on swept wings but have run into a problem
in determining the neutral point of a particular one. For the simple swept
wing, there was no difficulty in locating the Np, but when I added an
extension at the trailing edge, I got two different NPs.
The following diagram will illustrate this: I will try to describe this
swept wing. First draw a horizontal line. The mark a point and raise a
vertiical(?) line at 30 degrees to this vertical. Now draw a line parallel
to the base line 6.5 inches above it. Where it cuts the 30 degree line mark
this point, then measure 1" on the large angle side and mark this point too.
Now measure 3.2" on the same side of the 30 degree line as the 1" along the
baseline and mark this point. Now connect the 1" and the 3.2" points and you
should have a swept back wing. Obtain the NP of this wing by extending the
base line and the 6.5" lines by their resptective opposed distances, join
these points. Where this line crosses the wing LE and TE, divide it in half
and draw a line parallel to the base line to cut the LE. Half the distance
from the LE cut to the midpoint of the line joining the root and tip
extensions is the NP of this wing.
Now comes the problem. Measure 2" up from the baseline and draw a line
parallel to the base. From where this line cuts the TE, drop a vertical to
the baseline, thus creating additional area. We now have:
1 either a swept wing with an additional triangle at the root; or
2 two swept areas, the tip above the 2" line as a simple swept wing, the
NP of which can be determined in the same way as already shown. The root
section NP can also be determined by the same means. To determine the NP of
the combination joind the two NPs. Somewhere along this line lies the NP of
the whole in the ratio of the two areas. This gives a NP of the whole whih
moves FORWARD!!!! even when we have added area to the TRAILING EDGE!!!
The first option gives a different result. Joining the NP of the simple
swept wing the the NP of the samll triangle at the root TE gives a NP of the
whole which moves back ,just as you would expect. The trouble is, why does
the former method of finding the NP of the whole not give the same NP.
Answers, please.
Regards
Mike S
.........................
Roger Morrell
