SCAT Electronic News 30 July 1998
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SCAT Electronic News 30 July 1998
Table of Contents
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Suggestions regarding timing problems. - This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Timing and composite envy - Hermann Andreesen
Thoughts on timing and performance - Jan Somers
Antonov Cup Results - Victor Stamov
Suggestions regarding timing problems
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Hi Roger,
I thought I should share my idea's about the discussions regarding longer
Fly-Offs, problems with visibility, resulting higher demands on
timekeepers, and also field size restrictions.
Anzelmo was picking an idea about limiting the power ( =rubber). When we
went down from 40 g to 35 g, there was a lot concern that the class(F1B)
might loose some of its key attractions; but it turn out that the everyday
performance hardly has changed. Maybe due to the increasing rubber quality?
What I thought was why not limiting the performance by adding weight to
the model at times that we need shorter flights. Like when it is not
possible to make 5 or 7 min. flights, why not add 10g(or any other number)
to the models, this will definitely limit the performance, and the models
may stay on the field and within visiblity. There should some requirements
how to attach that extra weight and how to control this.The weight should
be added to the model, or another approach could be is raising your minimum
model weight by , let say,10 g, just in case your model is already "
overweight" you might not need to add extra.
Will the models fly differently ? Yes, likely they will fly faster. Do
they need to be trimmed differently, I do not know ? I have not tried this
idea my self, because I do not fly F1B. Who would like to try this out ?
Just compare some early mornings flights with and without extra weight and
collect some flight times.
I think this is easier to achieve than to reduce the rubber weight, and we
still can fly all flights with 35 g rubber and the very same models, and
it only effects the fly-offs. Possibly for small fields this could be an
idea too.
Don't pin me on the numbers, this is just a simple idea, and somebody else
has to try it out and work on it.
This naturally apply only for F1B, I have no suggestions regarding F1A (
which I fly) or F1C.
And just a sidetrack from above; on discussions regarding adding "
artificial " inteligence to the models using electronics timers, often this
is compared to Formula One race cars. Formula One is not very known in
North America. So not everybody might understand the comparison between F1
and our concerns . A few years ago these racing cars had almost everything
you could imagine added electronically to
" improve" the car. They had traction control, antiblocking systems,
automatic clutches and virtually you could almost not stall or spin the
car. But soon they found out that this is not very rewarding for the
skilled drivers. They like to reward the better driver, so they ban a few
things, as far as I know, they banned the traction control and the ABS, and
maybe a few more things.
How far this comparison works for us , I don't know.
Thermals,
Edmund Liem
Timekeepers and Composite envy
------------------------------
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
You don't have to rub it in to those of us who couldn't make the
Composites bash. Wondering if it would be possible to get an extended
play tape and save editing. Think all VHS will run the 6 hr EP mode.
As someone who started out when the 10 min max was introduced and binocs
forbidden, I find it hard to get excited about the timekeeper being
bottleneck for 5 & 7 min flites. Think fields are much greater
restriction.
At 1K Shootout, can't remember any flight above horizon clocking less
than 30 min.
As to timekeepers, it makes sense to me to have some kind of test, using
their binocs & mount to locate and describe some distant object. It also
wouldn't hurt to have all F1C timers check a common flight for engine run
prior to timing flyoff flights. It would be a lot fairer if the fliers
would refrain from the mass launch syndrome.
You should have heard the timekeepers cheer as Ed Keck flew a brilliant
orange F1C instead of the stealth aluminum at a SW Regional.
Keep up the good work,
Hermann Andresen
Antonov Cup
F1A
1 LAZAREVITCH Vladislav UKR 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 2761536
2 BESARAB Victor UKR 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 1981458
3 STAMOV Victor UKR 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 1901450
4 GRUSHKOVSKY Yury UKR 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 1511411
5 GRIGORIEV Dimitry UKR 160 180 180 180 180 180 180 1240
6 YABLONOVSKY Igor UKR 180 180 180 180 180 180 154 1234
7 ARTEMENKO Yaroslav (juUKR 150 180 180 180 180 180 180 1230
8 PSHENICHNY Oleg UKR 180 180 132 180 180 180 180 1212
9 CHOP Victor UKR 112 180 180 180 180 180 180 1192
10 ISAENKO Victor UKR 166 180 180 180 180 180 112 1178
11 YURCHENKO Alexander UKR 180 180 180 180 180 180 88 1168
12 KHALIK Yury (junior) UKR 82 180 180 180 180 180 180 1162
13 POSTOENKO Sergey UKR 118 180 143 180 180 180 180 1161
14 LAZAREVITCH Valery UKR 180 77 180 180 180 180 180 1157
15 KOLUMBET Igor UKR 180 123 180 180 172 180 125 1140
16 ZAVGORODNY Igor UKR 52 180 180 180 180 180 180 1132
17 ISAENKO Roman UKR 180 96 116 180 180 180 180 1112
18 FEDISHIN Roman UKR 180 151 180 180 180 59 180 1110
19 PSHENICHNY Pavel (juniUKR 76 101 180 180 180 180 180 1077
20 LUKASHEV Anatoly UKR 180 84 180 180 180 180 45 1029
21 KORYAKA Vladimir (juniUKR 121 180 180 180 180 110 44 995
22 BOLGOV Vyacheslav UKR 130 116 180 180 180 0 180 966
23 GANNOCHENKO Sergey UKR 113 180 86 180 88 180 134 961
24 KHALIK Andrey (junior)UKR 92 180 180 103 95 180 121 951
25 KOZYRENKO Anatoly UKR 114 180 65 180 139 70 180 928
26 SADCHIKOV Nikolay UKR 156 78 119 180 180 180 0 893
27 CHERNIKH Elena UKR 85 113 146 180 145 180 0 849
28 BUTURLIMOV Vadim UKR 180 49 62 180 75 175 121 842
29 TUTUGIN Danil (junior)UKR 180 180 70 180 30 70 129 839
30 MEDVEDEV Yury UKR 101 130 180 78 80 100 153 822
31 KOVALENKO Sergey UKR 71 91 180 180 0 0 0 522
32 POLYAKOV Victor UKR 110 180 0 0 0 0 0 290
F1B
1 BUKIN Alexey UKR 210 180 180 180 180 180 180 323 1613
2 BLAZHEVICH Yury UKR 210 180 180 180 180 180 180 313 1603
3 STAROV Alexander UKR 210 180 180 180 180 180 180 269 1559
4 KULAKOVSKY Oleg UKR 210 180 180 175 180 180 180 1285
5 MIKHEEV Nikolay RUS 204 180 180 176 180 180 180 1280
6 CHERNYKH Alexander UKR 210 155 180 180 180 180 180 1265
7 SHAGUN Alexander UKR 180 180 180 180 180 180 180 1260
8 VIVCHAR Igor UKR 210 180 145 180 180 180 180 1255
9 STAROSTENKO Victor UKR 205 180 160 180 180 180 167 1252
10 KRYSKO Oleg (junior)UKR 145 180 180 180 180 180 180 1225
11 STEFANCHOUK Stepan UKR 170 145 180 180 180 180 180 1215
12 AFONSKIY Andrey (junUKR 167 127 180 180 180 180 180 1194
13 KUROVTSEV Igor RUS 210 84 180 180 155 180 180 1169
14 KHOLYAVKIN Victor UKR 152 180 111 180 180 180 180 1163
15 GORBAN Evgeny UKR 210 107 120 180 180 180 180 1157
16 ANDRIEVICH Grigory UKR 155 180 155 120 180 180 180 1150
17 DESINGER Wilhelm GER 100 180 109 180 180 180 180 1109
18 PAVLUCHIK Igor UKR 200 94 180 180 180 180 84 1098
19 GUREEV Dimitry (juniUKR 103 180 120 180 149 122 180 1034
20 ASAFIEVA Una (juniorUKR 178 65 63 88 180 145 108 827
F1C
1 BABENKO Artem UKR 240 180 180 180 180 180 180 300 1620
2 ONOUFRIENKO Viktor RUS 240 180 180 180 180 180 180 291 1611
3 VERBITSKY Eugeny UKR 240 176 180 180 180 180 180 1316
4 MOLCHANOV Alexander UKR 240 180 180 180 180 180 159 1299
5 TREGUBENKO Vladimir UKR 196 180 180 180 180 180 180 1276
6 DROZDOV Alexander RUS 189 180 166 180 180 180 180 1255
7 KATIBA Sergey UKR 200 180 180 180 115 180 180 1215
8 TARGAMADZE Revaz RUS 145 180 180 161 180 180 180 1206
9 ALEXANDROV ViatcheslUKR 118 180 180 180 180 180 180 1198
9 PECHERITSA Vadim UKR 167 180 146 180 165 180 180 1198
11 SERBIN Andrey UKR 137 180 180 180 180 180 120 1157
12 VORVIHVOST Sergey UKR 148 165 180 180 180 180 32 1065
13 VASILIEV Yaroslav UKR 135 180 132 108 180 180 147 1062
14 MOGILNIY Yury UKR 0 180 180 138 180 180 114 972
15 SEMENYAGA Victor UKR 174 180 180 180 0 0 0 714
16 STRUKOV Valery UKR 28 0 0 0 0 0 0 28
Thought on timekeeping and performance.
----------------------------------------
Jan Somers
Reigershof 16
2751 CV MOERKAPELL July 29, 1998
The Netherlands
Email: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Dear Roger,
I would like to contribute some views to the time-keeping-
discussion.
To introduce myself first: I am an aeromodeller for exactly
40 years now and have always been flying F1A. Some years ago
I started flying F1B with some models bought from
Andriukov, but now flown with my own design wings.
I have competed in about 6 International competitions a year
over the past 20 years, and since I started F1B I try to fly
2 classes in each competition using 5 F1B's and 5 electronic bunting F1A's.
I live in The Netherlands.
I tell you all this to convince you(r readers) that I have
enough experience to know what I am talking about.
I have suffered many times from wrong timekeeper-decisions,
but also benefited from them. As every active flier I have
the feeling however that that I suffered much more than I
benefited........
To add one last experience from de EC in Portugal:
I witnessed a flight in the F1B fly-off in which the
recorded time was at least 1 minute too much. Both official
timekeepers (one ec-competitor and one from the
organisation) were looking with their binoculars in a
different angle, the difference between their looking-angle
being about 30°, the flier standing in between them with
his binoculars in front of his eyes, but looking from left
tot right to see whether the timekeepers were still looking
in the direction of the model ! With me other people saw
this happen.
The timekeepers were not using tripods and obviously both
reluctant in admitting that the lost the model out of sight
! In any case they can not have watched the same model.
But now for the real question : did the F1B-competitor
benefit from his wrong time ? Did he get a higher pace than
he deserved ?
The answer is : we don't know !
Maybe all (or many of ) the other times are wrong to the
same extend !
(The winning F1A time is miraculous too, if you look at the
other times in F1A fly-off, that are closely together, how
can one guy do 90 (!!) seconds more ? The fact that the
field is slightly undulated can not count for that : the
airflow follows the landscape I think).
I tell this whole story because I think it can (should)
learn us where the mistake is that we all make.
In my opinion the big mistake is very close to us: it is
ourselves. Ourselves as human beings with many limitations, deficiencies.
Those limitations are many, but we can (shall) correct them.
Our gaol, I think, must be to further improve our sport, to
further make us all try to perform better, to use better
techniques, skills etc, etc. Like that our sport developed
over time to a real sport with high potential aeroplanes and
high potential fliers.
Never, never shall we make rules that stop development.
But we did just that !
It is us, our rules that are now slowly (rapidly ??) ruining
our sport. This happens be returning wrong
competition results and by proposing/making wrong changes to
our own rules.
I mean that we have been clumsy enough to make rules that
cannot be complied with, that cannot be controlled,
followed.
For instance: why do we make a rule such that a small F1B
model has to be followed for 7 minutes by two human beings
while wind is blowing and it is flying big circles together
with other models. Two humans beings that are (physically
determined) unable to keep there hands steady so long, keep
there eyes wide open so long, keep there concentration up so
long ? While in fact we know this is impossible.
Than we make a rule about binoculars and tripods, which, in
the ultimate flights are not used.
Why did not we enforce use of them?
Because we are human beings with deficiencies !
Add this to the human deficiencies of: not volunteering to
keep time, lean on (young) timekeepers to change the time,
apply the rules in a liberal way, lie about a 21 second
official flight being a test flight.
So I think that we must make a set of rules that we are all
willing to adhere to and that are applicable for human
beings, taking into account their normal, natural,
physically determined, deficiencies.
If we do so we will have the right time for every
competition flight and the right champions.
Many FAI-competitions now do not provide official
timekeepers any more. It is my experience that on those
competitions there are hardly any (at least less) complaints
about the timekeeping then in competitions were timekeepers
(often not experienced free-fliers) are provided. I think
the reason is that you cannot fool a fellow competitor, it
is simply no use trying !!
My thoughts to cope with those human deficiencies are:
Decrease the performance of the models so that they can
complete their flights within sight. Not by stopping
development, or by forbidding 'inventions' to improve
performance, because that will really kill our sport. Not
by changing the rules in a way that we all have to
built/buy new models. But by changing the rules in a way
that we can keep using our present models and go on
developing to increase their performance (thus having to
change the rules after some time again).
Suggestions: F1A decrease line length to 40 meters,
F1B increase model weight by 100 grams (this was suggested
to me by my good friend Cenny Breeman during a nice
dinner at his home last Saturday),
F1C by decreasing the motorrun.
At the moment I think it is only necessary to change F1B
rules, since F1A stays nicely in sight "performs
within sight distance", and F1C seems Ok with the 5 second motorrun.
But the now highest performing class
(with the smaller aircraft) is F1B.
Return to the 1 minute increase of fly-off time. In my opinion
it is not so sure that the fly-off will take longer. People
will drop out during those rounds, thus eliminating the number
of people having to do the ultimate 10 minute early morning
flight (why is that 10 min. and not unlimited?), thus having
more good timekeepers (5 per competitor ?) available and less
chance of a wrong time. (Strike the highest and the lowest
time, and take the average of the 3 remaining). It will help
our sport !
Strike the 20 second rule out of the rulebook again, and the
number of people reaching the fly-off will decrease. If you
want to take risks to achieve a better result: bear them !
There no reason rewarding a failing DPR mechanism in F1B with a
reflight and punishing a 179 second flight with a placing in the middle.
Comparisons with other sports give a mixed result: many have a
second change, many have not. But still: why compare ? This is
freeflight and we need specific rules for our sport
See that rules are adhered to by organisers and timekeepers.
If the rule is use of tripods: force them to use them. Let it
be taken into account with the entry fee that the organiser has
to buy good tripods We must gladly pay for that, because we
want a fair competition.
Start a system in which we have qualified timekeepers. Every sport has
them, but us !
I must be possible to make a set of international = CIAM rules under
which any person can get a Timekeeping-licence. Exams etc. to be
taken by the National Aeroclubs.
Only timekeepers with a valid licence are entitled to keep
time.Each country participating in a EC WC must bring a number
of qualified timekeepers, equal to 1/3rd of the competitors
they register. Like that there will, together with extra
timekeepers brought in by the organising Aeroclub, be
sufficient timekeepers for each class and fly-offs. The
timekeepers will be lodged etc. free of charge. Again add it to
the entry fee.
I am fully aware that not all these thoughts of mine can be
applied right away, if they can be applied at all.
I merely wanted to show my concern with the future of our
fabulous sport.
I merely wanted the show the weakest spot of aeromodelling:
the human beings that do it.
For me it is absolutely clear that you can only use rules
that are applicable to those who have to do so !
And as much as I can not run 100 meters in 7 seconds, I can
not see an F1B in a windy situation at a distance of 3
kilometres against the sun ! It is only stupid not to admit
that !
Jan Somers
Footnote - how about a Nats F1A report Mr Weiler ?
................
Roger Morrell
