SEN 1256 -27 oct 2008
- Category: Archive 2008
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Table of Contents - SEN 1256 27 October
- USA Team Selection [ what else , the finals is just over]
- Clarifications, on rules imaginary or not
- Request for Sympos papers
- Frank Parmenter
Team Selection Rules
From: a bunch of people
It is standard practice in the USA to Quote Norm Furutani - that after the Finals there are 9 happy guys and 99 who want to change the rules. This year things were a little different in that one happy guy - ie. Walt Ghio also want to change the rules , at least the 75 mins qualification any way.
... do Canadian Americas Cup count? or Mexican if there were any?
Comment from John Lorbiecki
I personally (at this time) do not have much to bring into this as we have not been flying for the finals. However, that may be changing in the near future as John finishes off college and I just plain old get better.
But, as someone in the lonely north Midwest (and, except for Dave Edmondson) one of the furthest north It is easily a 6-7 hour trip to Muncie and many more hours to any other competitive field. Plus, as our interests are somewhat spread, I can not easily take off and go to either coast. So, I would mostly limited to Muncie contests. And, in Muncie, many times it is either a three or four contestant meet (last year in F1A there was only three at one and I think only two in another plus F1C was normally some combination of Norm, Bucky, John, myself,and Gil!). From what I read, this would really limit the possibility to get in.
In the olden days there was always an excess of flyers and the semi-finals/finals selection worked to limit the flyers in each class. Nowadays, it sure looks like we have less than 30 in the classes (and I think it was less). So, do we really need a qualifications?
I know this is radical, but almost anyone that attends the finals is a qualified (as far as skills and equipment) competitor, with a good chance of doing reasonably well. And, as many times, unless conditions are notoriously rotten, the cream will rise to the top.
The possibility of a major change to the finals qualification "may" limit what part time flyers can do and you may never see them able to qualify. I know that us part timers aren't as serious as those that are finacially and time-wise able to travel and compete, but is there any reason why we can't attend? Some part timers are quite good and would be a good addition to the team- Plus, when you make the team, your program almost instantly gets more aggressive.
Again, as I don't have much to say verses those that regularly travel and compete, I still feel that there may be others in the group that share the same constraints. I will definately go along with the majority, but it may get to the point (when I get serious on qualifying) that I am just not able to swing it....
Thanks for listening and good luck to all!! PS- Rumor has it we may actually get some snow on Monday!!
Subject: Fwd: Team Selection Format
Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 8:07 PM
Norman Poti sent me the below information. His address list was very small along with the other address list that I can read and I felt that more flyers should read what is being proposed by a few flyers. Please forward this to anybody that is not on my address list.
The below is interesting reading. I believe the 75 minute requirement should go away. Replace it with a lot of contest to attend may work and it may not work. My guess is that the same flyers will still be in the top three with many contest or just one contest.
How about counting World Cup contest? For sure if you place high in a major World Cup contest in Europe it should be worth something. A contest is a contest the way I look at it. If you place high, you should be rewarded with some team points. Just my opinion.
Each year somebody has an issue with the mixed fuel. How come we do not buy commercial fuel and have the flyers pay for it? My 35,500 rpm gear Hummer and 29,000 rpm direct drive Verbitsky engines had no issues with fuel this year. I felt it was great fuel that was used for the Sierra Cup and the Finals. Again, just my opinion.
Regards, Walt Ghio
Begin forwarded message:
Date: October 24, 2008 4:39:07 PM PDT
Subject: Team Selection Format
I agree that a long dead zone in between finals is not conducive to holding interest nor for maintaining flying skills. Furthermore the 75 minute qualification requirement is non-productive. I am in total agreement that inclusion of America's Cup scores would benefit the program. That being said, a wholesale replacement of the current format by America's Cup standings will never pass a vote of finalists. The Free Flight community is to conservative and resistant to change. With that as background I propose replacing the 75 minute requirements with the following; utilize the standings of the America Cup for the year prior to a finals to award bonus points. Award bonus seconds equivalent to the number of contestants you beat in the America's Cup to be utilized in Finals competition. For example if 25 flyers score points in F1C competitions and winner would get 24 seconds to be utilized for dropped rounds or to add into fly-off flights. The 5th place flyer would get 19 points etc. This more conservative approach to including America's Cup competition has a better chance of passing and addresses some of the concerns listed below.
I hope you will read this and give me your input. Since you were the latest one to get screwed in a one contest scenario, and I am very sorry that this happened to you. This program will help eliminate that scenario from being such a disaster. It is not the way we should do it. It is not good for participation to have a one contest finals. 9 people are happy and the other 70 are wondering what they are going to do for the next two years.
The multi contests is fairer and does not create the long lag time between the finals DEAD ZONE that always cost us fliers.
The multi contest program will create interest with out the long dead time between finals that we currently have. It will create more interest and better teams taht are more focus on flying. It also, will not add cost to anything as we will eliminate 4 qualifing contests and the finals. So that is a basic push!! you don't have to go to all the contests and you can keep your flying schedule that works best for you, without being so dictatoral. Go to the contests you want and don't go to what has no interest to you.
Anyway, read the stuff below and give me your input please.
Subject: Fw: Re: Proposal for a Multiple Contest Team Selection Program
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 6:45 PM
If the fliers think there are not enough options as to contests availability, I think that we can add Phoenix and Tangent which have adequat flying sites. Phoenix gives the Midwest and Texas flyers another contest and tangent gives the Norhtwest flyers another contest. That would bring the total to 12 that we count 4 best from. They would be good additions and are at times of the yesr that do not conflict with other events. One in January and one in late August.
Subject: Re: Proposal for a Multiple Contest Team Selection Program
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 5:25 PM
In my opinion this is too much. What I proposed in '96 was a group of about 8 or 9 contests and count 3 or 4. Sorry, brain dead and can't remember. I believe that if we use established contests that most of the fliers attend is the best way to increase activity and create a large entry pool. Everyone like to fly at big contests. Maybe start at Livotto, then the Sierra cup, Palm Bay in Dec. in 2009. Then in 2010, the Maxmen, then Texas in June, July in Denver, Aug. the. Nats, Livotto Cup, Sierra Cup,in Oct. then finish it off with the Max Men in Feb in 2011. I would think some thing like this which is 10 contests.
Now, the fliers are going to say I am not going there or there, but you count 4 of the contests and go where you want. Next the fliers are going to say it is not fair to have these little contests on the list, but if people think the contests are going to be small with easier points, then the attendance will likely be higher. If they don't like the flying site then they don't have to go.
Now, they are going to say it is not fair to have some one win the little contest and gets a team spot. We can use a point system that balances that out.As a starting point use a number as big as the amount of highest entries. Say the Maxmen has 35 fliers in an event. That will be the highest starting point total for all contests. Say 50 points for first place and 45 second place 40 third place,and so on. Use this for all contests and then add an extra point for each flier you beat. So if there are 34 fliers you beat you get an extra 1 point per flier you beat. So your total if you win with 35 fliers you points for the win with 50 plus 34 entries is 84. Second place gets 45points and you beat 33points for the fliers you beat, so your point total is 68 points.
Now, if you fly at a contest with 10 entrees first place gets 50 points plus 9 points for entries he beat for a total of 59 points. Now, second place gets 45 plus he beat 8 fliers so the total is 53 points. And so on down the line.
Now, if you compare the totals you will see that that 5Th place points at a big contest which has 35 entries works out to the same point total as first place for a 10 entry contest.
5th place is 30 points and he beat 29 fliers for 29 points for a total of 59points, which is the same total as winning a 10 entry contest, 50 for 1st and 9 fliers he beat for a total of 59 points. This type of points break down seems to be equally weighted to me, but you can adjust as you see fit. I do not believe that winning 3 small contests will get you there without a good showing in a big one, I would say we count 4 contests in this point breakdown system. This is my thought on how to add contests at smaller sites, smaller attended contests to get this thing passed.
We need to have contests that the Eastern fliers attend such as Palm bay and the Nats to get this thing passed. Now the contest setup and timing issue. You can fly on poles or in groups I don't care. I think each contest that wants to be on the finals list needs to have a Banquet or BBQ. This needs to be a social gathering as well as a contest. We need to keep the fraternity of fliers together. We are all a bunch of dinosaurs and it is nice to have a
social event tide to the contest.
Now, the big one.One hour rounds fly one time one! Simple!! You get 30 minutes to fly!! Not unlike the WC which you get 20 minutes per round. Next and most important, you cannot have a same event person time you. If you fly F1A, an F1B or f1C must time you, and so on. F1A fliers generally take up the most time so, they have 30 minutes to get there flight off.. FIb fliers don't like to hold there rubber that long, so they are the next quickest and power fliers are mostly piggy backers and go pretty quickly. Now, in the event that a flier can not get a timer from another class, then he can use 2 timers of the same event. this should be an exception to the above rule. We just cannot have a buddy, buddy system. Too much controversy!! As for the fly offs we can use a draw system and hopefully double up with 2 timers for each flier.
I have more but I think this is my general idea on what we should do. Oh yes, one more thing, if the fly off is not finished to to site size, weather, light or whatever the fly off contestants need to work out where they want to finish it at the next contest they are all attending. It is for them to decide and not dictated by people that it does not concern.
Subject: Proposal for a Multiple Contest Team Selection Program
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 3:51 PM
Dear George, Alex, Mike,
After discussions with the three of you at the finals earlier this month, I have decided to put something in writing for the four of us to discuss, beatup on, whatever......... so as to get something going...hopefully quickly, as such a proposal needs to be finalized prior to the selection committee meeting.
While the F1C fliers were timing on the last day of the finals, Mike Achterberg voiced the opinion that a single finals contest, where a single occurance of bad luck puts an individual out of the running for making the team, is a poor team selection method. I am in full agreement with Mike............. the zero's I took in the first two rounds were the first zero's I had ever taken, for not getting my engines to run, were the first in 47 years of flying F1C. After going through my engines and fuel systems, and lots of discussion with other F1C fliers I have come to the conclusion that the problem was bad fuel, either improperly mixed or improperly sealed fuel containers (how long the fuel had been mixed and where it was stored is also unknown, I do know that I used the fuel from the same fuel bottle for the first two rounds). Achterberg, Happersett, Spence, all suffered nearly the same problem I had and it cost all three. Achterberg thought compression......... I have never seen compression affect my engines as drastically as the problems I had with 2 real good engines.
I discussed a multiple contest selection program with George and then also with Alex. Alex is of the same opinion as Mike, and said he would indorse a multi contest team selection program.
Okay, first cut.
I propose that we have a team selection program based on the America's Cup program, but with a number of changes. In order for such a change to our team selection process to be accepted nation wide I think we should emulate the now fully embraced America's Cup program...... within reason.
I also believe that most all of the team program fliers come to the west coast for the two contests in February and again for the two contests in October. Consequently tying part of the the team selection program (i.e., flyoffs, whether to settle any contest results, or to break a tie in points for a team position), to the Sierra Cup, or if necessary to the February time period, would be fully acceptable.
1. The team selection program for selecting the team for the 2011 World Championships would start February 1, 2009, and run through the Sierra Cup International Contest October 2010. The official Team Selection Program can be voted on, published, and program entry can all take place after the February 2009 contests, but the results of the February 2009 contests, and later contests, will be available and can be tabulated once the program mechanism is established and put into effect. Program entry at any date would enable the program entrant to get points from prior contests, but no further back than 60 days.
2, All America's Cup contests would be qualifying contests.
3. For flying rounds, the flier can be timed by anyone, same as any America's Cup and World Cup Contests are run.
4. For flyoffs, the Contest Director must ensure that all fliers are timed by other F1A,B,C fliers. Each flier in the flyoff must provide a timer to a timer pool, and timers from the pool must be assigned to fliers by a blind draw by the Contest Director. The CD will ensure that the flyoffs are run on schedule in accordance with FAI Rules. Should flyoffs not be possible because of the weather or field conditions, the fliers will decide where and when the flyoff will take place. If all fliers (in their particular class) agree, the flyoff may be scheduled to take place anywhere and at anytime prior to the 2010 Sierra Cup....... there is no 60 day period where the flyoff must take place. However, once the flyoff is scheduled, it must be officiated by 2 timers for each flier, and flown in accordance with FAI rules, i.e., to a scheduled time, 10 minute flyoff period, etc, and the results reported to the program score keeper as soon as possible.
5. Complete results of the contests must be reported to a program score keeper representative appointed by the Team Selection Committee to maintain up-to-date results to be published and reported to program entrants each month by the team selection Committee Chairman in a monthly newsletter.
6. The number of contests that scores can be counted from for any given site is three per year. This makes best use of the three centralized flying sites we have, Muncie, Seguin, and Lost Hills and allows for full use of a field when other flying fields are lost....... to wit, Waegell Field (Sacramento), Sedera Ranch (Fort Worth/Dallas).
7. The scoring for selecting the team is identical to the America's Cup scoring with the total contests scores to be counted to be seven (7) from the 21 Month selection period.
8. Should there be a tie in selection points at the end of the Sierra Cup, (points from the 2010 Sierra Cup Contest to be calculated immediately (at) following the Sierra Cup) the fliers who are tied will immediately fly off the morming after the Sierra Cup.
Should one of the fliers who is tied in the points for a team position not be present at the Sierra Cup, then the flyoff will take place at Lost Hills one morning between the 2010 Isaacson contest and the 2010 MaxMen contest.
Okay........ some background here George, Sifleet says the AMA Bylaws state that must be only one finals contest. This is not so! The AMA Manual that covers AMA Team Selection and Team Managers, etc (the blue book) talks about the finals contest. In either 1996 or 1998 (can't remember exactly) when I was Chairman of the Team Selection Committee, I spoke to HQ AMA about multiple selection contests. HQ AMA agreed to us having such a program, prior to my presenting the multiple contestest proposal to the Committee. This removed all arguements against the proposal based on what AMA allows.
AMA agreed to the proposal based on the vote of the program participants approving such a program. I then presented the proposal to the committee, I think they voted 8 to 3 to present the proposal to the participants........... and we prepared a initial finals program that included two options, Program A. the single finals format program, and B. The Multiple contest program. The participants were then to vote for which one they wanted.
Unfortunately there was a bad situation at the Phoenix contest in January (just prior to sending out the program to the participants)
that resulted in my pulling the multiple contest program (with the concurrance of all committee members). I believe the detail spelled out in paragraph 4 above will ensure that there will be no repeat flyoff timing situations in the future.
George, Alex, Mike................ please review the propsal I have described above, email me and/or each other, suggest changes, let me know what you like and dislike, etc, ....... or call me (1-817-599-9247) and lets discuss anything and everything. Please, bear in mind, the proposal could have been much tighter, much more directed at Lost Hills contests, which we all know is the best flying site in the States, but I tried to propose a program that would be acceptable by the majority of the Team Selection committee, and fair to program entrants.
And from Ken Bauer
I think this is a very productive discussion and I would like to share a couple thoughts here.
I believe the key is to find the right balance between two extremes, one being a short one contest finals and the other being stictly a multi contest points approach like the America's cup. I like the idea of increasing participation any way we can, but each of the extremes can tend to drive people away. If we were to go just with the America's cup, then you have people like John L who because of geography and time could not compete. I think if John were to spend his cold winters developing the next wiz-bang flapper/folder and he can make it fly in a few contests, that he should have a chance to compete for the team. Also, there are those who have almost unlimited time and travel resources who would have the advantage every cycle just due to the sheer number of contests they could attend and this could discourage some of us who do other things in life besides fly airplanes.
But still having a program that encourages people to fly more and pushes them to travel and attend more contests is good, so I like some of the compromise approaches such as using America's cup points for qualification and using these points in a bonus system to make up for lost seconds in a finals. Tying cup points to the program should help keep the program going during the two year cycle.
Finally, the one good thing about the single site finals is that it is about as fair as a contest can be, perhaps with the exception of some timer problems. Everybody flies on the exact same field, exact same time, same weather, etc.., and while anything can happen in 7 rounds 14 rounds is enough for it to be a challenge. And while there has been a lot of talk about second chances and how that one bad flight can seem to be not fair, my experience in this sport is that it is absolutely unforgiving. The only approach is to strive for perfection, however hard it may be. The world champs is brutal and the smallest of errors causes the greatest of pain! I fear that in a strict mutli contest points format we will forever be debating the fair way to award points to the contests with 5 flyers vs those with 35 flyers. You can readjust the awarding of points endlessly to try and make it fair but I fear there will always be people complaining.
So lets look for a good compromise.
From: Nick Bosdet
Recent correspondence appears to indicate that clarification on a number of rules established in the FAI sporting Code, Section 4 - Aeromodelling Volume F1 Free Flight Model Aircraft is urgently required. Following careful reading by my legal friend, it would appear that there are a number of alleged inconsistencies in the application of rules and these require clarification. Clearly this has led to substantive & unnecessary upset. I respectively suggest that these matters should be promptly resolved and the findings perhaps broadcast through the excellent discussion fora.
Under 3.1.10 what is the allowable scope of activities of the "Helper" for F1A gliders?
It is noted that only one helper is allowed. Does this mean that one specific individual has to be nominated before the Round commences, or can one have a series of individuals helping sequentially over time in different areas of the flying field over the Round. Please clarify.
I assume that under 3.A2.4.4. Retrievers can only assist in the retrieval of the model and may not act as a Helper to the Competitor. Please clarify.
I note that 3.1.1 states that a glider is one that is not provided with a propulsion device.............etc. I therefore assume that any additional intentional, artificial efforts made by the Helper and/or Competitor and/or Follower to provide additional energy or to add energy to stimulate a greater release of energy with the objective of propelling the glider in any direction is prohibited? (Remember Einstein?)
Obviously to enforce the above, consideration of the cost and the manpower required to enforce the above rule would need to be taken into consideration, before deciding upon any revision. But is there anything to prohibit the use of large sheets reflective metal foil to stimulate an updraft? Or even the use of a very large Sports Utility Vehicle for the same effect?
It is noted that under 3.4.7 Indoor Models, Steering section (b) that a model's altitude may not be altered by a steering balloon. It is suggested that this sets a precedent that other free flight models may not be artificially propelled by anything other than natural forces after the energy from the tow, or engine or rubber motor run has been expended.
I note under 3.A2.4.4 that for safety reasons two people are required to be in a motorized vehicle when retrieving, presumably this includes a motorcycle.
Has the FAI considered the need to include an indemnity clause in the "Notice of Competition" to protect the Contest Organisers & CD?
It is noted when comparing F1E, F1A & F1B class rules, that there is an inconsistency between the rules that Gliders with automatic steering under 3.5.11 must be only be adjusted by the competitor. Why is this rule not extended to all classes?
Some further points for consideration
Does the Committee have any intention in introducing a maximum breaking strain for F1A towlines? I am now regularly breaking Russian Rod with my very high energy and high bunt launches - honest I am.
By the way has anyone noticed the credit crunch, the fall in pensions and the world wide recession & considered how this will adversly impact on the attractiveness of these very expensive FAI Free Flight Toys? So perhaps it high time that CIAM reviewed its decision not to consider "one design" or alternatively think about cost controlled models?
It is noted that the Scots do indeed dance round naked, daubed in blue paint. However its cold in Scotland and the flapping effect may not be very efficacious.
It should be noted that both the Salisbury Morris Dancers and Stonehenge Druids have already been booked to assist at the Stonehenge Cup 2009.
I too have been curious about the number of helpers. In the finals my friend John Malkin is my helper, but if , for example my wife walks over with food or to give me advice , both of which she is want, does that mean I'm in contravention of the rules? because I have a extra helper. Or if can I get a fellow sportsman DQ'd by helping him by picking up his model and bringing it back, or better still riding my ATV around under it?, especially if I can make it stall! In F1B we all have to be DQ'd because of the free advice on when to fly we get from Bob Tymchek!
At the finals people came to ask for help on the Magic timers, can I answer those questions? or if they were having difficulty can I set or help them set the timer? I've seen both Alex Andriukov and Igor Vivchar help other sportsmen set the pit of thier F1B prop, is that OK?
Request for Sympo papers
From: John Lorbiecki
Damn that Brodersen! Not really, but my buddy Hardy can be very persuasive and this year I have the honor of being the editor for the 2009 NFFS Symposium. So, I am putting out the request for authors (or would be authors) to send me their information on possible articles. I would like interested individuals to get in touch with me before Nov 20th to begin the process.
I would like others to think about this theme- Free Flight, present and future. I am interested in seeing authored papers about programs/proposals that will insure the future of free flight. How do we get more involved (young and old)? What have members done that have made a difference? Where will the next Stalick, Brodersen, Italiano, Batiuks come from? We have a small group and need it to, if not grow, at least stay level. Put on your thinking caps, and put down on paper your ideas. This is our future and if we want to continue, we must look to the future.
I would love to see articles from individuals Like Art Ellis and Rocco Ferrario who have worked a successful junior program that has produced people that have done well in both modeling and the "real world".
Thanks and help me look good!!
Roger, I am forwarding this to you.
We have lost a great guy. From: Pamela Troutman
Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 9:44 PM
Sad Note. I just got a call from Mark Parmenter ( Frank Parmenters son) who informed me of Franks passing today. He didn't have any details other than it happened quickly and that a service will be held in the Georgetown TX area this coming Saturday.
Frank was truly one of the finest modelers and nicest guys I have ever had the pleasure to compete against and share modeling experiences with. Many of his designs in both rubber and power are legendary and he was the first to show me how he did things and why. His membership in the NFFS Hall of Fame speaks for itself and I will be flying a Faital Charmer next year at all the nostalgia contests in his memory.
I will pass along any other information I get concerning services for him. Our prayers are with Franks family.