Hi Norm;  I hope you will read this and give me your input. Since you were the latest one to get screwed in a one contest scenario, and I am very sorry that this happened to you. This program will help eliminate that scenario from being such a disaster. It is not the way we should do it. It is not good for participation to have a one contest finals. 9 people are happy and the other 70 are wondering what they are going to do for the next two years. The multi contests is fairer and does not create the long lag time between the finals DEAD ZONE that always cost us fliers.  The multi contest program will create interest with out the long dead time between finals that we currently have. It will create more interest and better teams taht are more focus on flying. It also, will not add cost to anything as we will eliminate 4 qualifing contests and the finals. So that is a basic push!! you don't have to go to all the contests and you can keep your flying schedule that works best for you, without being so dictatoral. Go to the contests you want and don't go to what has no interest to you. Anyway, read the stuff below and give me your input please. Your Friend ~~Michael --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Michael Achterberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote: From: Michael Achterberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> Subject: Fw: Re: Proposal for a Multiple Contest Team Selection Program To: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. Cc: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 6:45 PM Hello; If the fliers think there are not enough options as to contests availability, I think that we can add Phoenix and Tangent which have adequat flying sites. Phoenix gives the Midwest and Texas flyers another contest and tangent gives the Norhtwest flyers another contest. That would bring the total to 12 that we count 4 best from. They would be good additions and are at times of the yesr that do not conflict with other events. One in January and one in late August. Thermals, Michael Achterberg --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Michael Achterberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote: From: Michael Achterberg <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> Subject: Re: Proposal for a Multiple Contest Team Selection Program To: "Roger Simpson" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> Cc: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 5:25 PM Hello;  In my opinion this is too much. What I proposed in '96 was a group of about 8 or 9 contests and count 3 or 4. Sorry, brain dead and can't remember. I believe that if we use established contests that most of the fliers attend is the best way to increase activity and create a large entry pool. Everyone like to fly at big contests. Maybe start at Livotto, then the Sierra cup, Palm Bay in Dec. in 2009. Then in 2010, the Maxmen, then Texas in June, July in Denver, Aug. the. Nats,  Livotto Cup, Sierra Cup,in Oct. then finish it off with the Max Men in Feb in 2011. I would think some thing like this which is 10 contests.  Now, the fliers are going to say I am not going there or there, but you count 4 of the contests and go where you want. Next the fliers are going to say it is not fair to have these little contests on the list, but if people think the contests are going to be small with easier points, then the attendance will likely be higher. If they don't like the flying site then they don't have to go.  Now, they are going to say it is not fair to have some one win the little contest and gets a team spot. We can use a point system that balances that out.As a starting point use a number as big as the amount of highest entries. Say the Maxmen has 35 fliers in an event. That will be the highest starting point total for all contests. Say 50 points for first place and 45 second place 40 third place,and so on. Use this for all contests and then add an extra point for each flier you beat. So if there are 34 fliers you beat you get an extra 1 point per flier you beat. So your total if you win with 35 fliers you  points for the win with 50 plus 34 entries is 84. Second place gets 45points and you beat 33points for the fliers you beat, so your point total is 68 points.   Now, if you fly at a contest with 10 entrees first place gets 50 points plus 9 points for entries he beat for a total of  59 points. Now, second place gets 45 plus he beat 8 fliers so the total is 53 points. And so on down the line.   Now, if you compare the totals you will see that that 5Th place points at a big contest which has 35 entries works out to the same point total as first place for a 10 entry contest. 5th place is 30 points and he beat 29 fliers for 29 points for a total of 59points, which is the same total as winning a 10 entry contest, 50 for 1st and 9 fliers he beat for a total of 59 points. This type of points break down seems to be equally weighted to me, but you can adjust as you see fit. I do not believe that winning 3 small contests will get you there without a good showing in a big one, I would say we count 4 contests in this point breakdown system. This is my thought on how to add contests at smaller sites, smaller attended contests to get this thing passed.  We need to have contests that the Eastern fliers attend such as Palm bay and the Nats to get this thing passed. Now the contest setup and timing issue. You can fly on poles or in groups I don't care. I think each contest that wants to be on the finals list needs to have a Banquet or BBQ. This needs to be a social gathering as well as a contest. We need to keep the fraternity of fliers together. We are all a bunch of dinosaurs and it is nice to have a social event tide to the contest.   Now, the big one.One hour rounds fly one time one! Simple!! You get 30 minutes to fly!! Not unlike the WC which you get 20 minutes per round. Next and most important, you cannot have a same event person time you. If you fly F1A, an F1B or f1C must time you, and so on. F1A fliers generally take up the most time so, they have 30 minutes to get there flight off.. FIb fliers don't like to hold there rubber that long, so they are the next quickest and power fliers are mostly piggy backers and go pretty quickly. Now, in the event that a flier can not get a timer from another class, then he can use 2 timers of the same event. this should be an exception to the above rule. We just cannot have a buddy, buddy system. Too much controversy!!  As for the fly offs we can use a draw system and hopefully double up with 2 timers for each flier.  I have more but I think this is my general idea on what we should do. Oh yes, one more thing, if the fly off is not finished to to site size, weather, light or whatever the fly off contestants need to work out where they want to finish it at the next contest they are all attending. It is for them to decide and not dictated by people that it does not concern. Thermals~~ Michael Achterberg --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Roger Simpson <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote: From: Roger Simpson <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> Subject: Proposal for a Multiple Contest Team Selection Program To: "George Batiuk" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>, "Alex Andriukov" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>, "Mike Achterberg" <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 3:51 PM Dear George, Alex, Mike,   After discussions with the three of you at the finals earlier this month, I have decided to put something in writing for the four of us to discuss, beatup on, whatever......... so as to get something going...hopefully quickly, as such a proposal needs to be finalized prior to the selection committee meeting.   While the F1C fliers were timing on the last day of the finals, Mike Achterberg voiced the opinion that a single finals contest, where a single occurance of bad luck puts an individual out of the running for making the team, is a poor team selection method.  I am in full agreement with Mike............. the zero's I took in the first two rounds were the first zero's I had ever taken, for not getting my engines to run, were the first in 47 years of flying F1C.  After going through my engines and fuel systems, and lots of discussion with other F1C fliers I have come to the conclusion that the problem was bad fuel, either improperly mixed or improperly sealed fuel containers (how long the fuel had been mixed and where it was stored is also unknown, I do know that I used the fuel from the same fuel bottle for the first two rounds).  Achterberg, Happersett, Spence, all suffered nearly the same problem I had and it cost all three.   Achterberg thought compression......... I have never seen compression affect my engines as drastically as the problems I had with 2 real good engines.   I discussed a multiple contest selection program with George and then also with Alex.  Alex is of the same opinion as Mike, and said he would indorse a multi contest team selection program. Okay, first cut.   I propose that we have a team selection program based on the America's Cup program, but with a number of changes.  In order for such a change to our team selection process to be accepted nation wide I think we should emulate the now fully embraced America's Cup program...... within reason.   I also believe that most all of the team program fliers come to the west coast for the two contests in February and again for the two contests in October.  Consequently tying part of the the team selection program (i.e., flyoffs, whether to settle any contest results, or to break a tie in points for a team position), to the Sierra Cup, or if necessary to the February time period, would be fully acceptable.   1.  The team selection program for selecting the team for the 2011 World Championships would start February 1, 2009, and run through the Sierra Cup International Contest October 2010.  The official Team Selection Program can be voted on, published, and program entry can all take place after the February 2009 contests, but the results of the February 2009 contests, and later contests, will be available and can be tabulated once the program mechanism is established and put into effect.  Program entry at any date would enable the program entrant to get points from prior contests, but no further back than 60 days.   2,  All America's Cup contests would be qualifying contests.   3.  For flying rounds, the flier can be timed by anyone, same as any America's Cup and World Cup Contests are run.   4.  For flyoffs, the Contest Director must ensure that all fliers are timed by other F1A,B,C fliers.  Each flier in the flyoff must provide a timer to a timer pool, and timers from the pool must be assigned to fliers by a blind draw by the Contest Director.  The CD will ensure that the flyoffs are run on schedule in accordance with FAI Rules.  Should flyoffs not be possible because of the weather or field conditions, the fliers will decide where and when the flyoff will take place.  If all fliers (in their particular class) agree, the flyoff may be scheduled to take place anywhere and at anytime prior to the 2010 Sierra Cup....... there is no 60 day period where the flyoff must take place.  However, once the flyoff is scheduled, it must be officiated by 2 timers for each flier, and flown in accordance with FAI rules, i.e., to a scheduled time, 10 minute flyoff period, etc, and the results reported to the program score keeper as soon as possible.   5.  Complete results of the contests must be reported to a program score keeper representative appointed by the Team Selection Committee to maintain up-to-date results to be published and reported to program entrants each month by the team selection Committee Chairman in a monthly newsletter.   6.  The number of contests that scores can be counted from for any given site is three per year.  This makes best use of the three centralized flying sites we have, Muncie, Seguin, and Lost Hills and allows for full use of a field when other flying fields are lost....... to wit, Waegell Field (Sacramento), Sedera Ranch (Fort Worth/Dallas).   7.  The scoring for selecting the team is identical to the America's Cup scoring with the total contests scores to be counted to be seven (7) from the 21 Month selection period.    8.  Should there be a tie in selection points at the end of the Sierra Cup, (points from the 2010 Sierra Cup Contest to be calculated immediately (at) following the Sierra Cup) the fliers who are tied will immediately fly off the morming after the Sierra Cup. Should one of the fliers who is tied in the points for a team position not be present at the Sierra Cup, then the flyoff will take place at Lost Hills one morning between the 2010 Isaacson contest and the 2010 MaxMen contest. Okay........ some background here George,  Sifleet says the AMA Bylaws state that must be only one finals contest.  This is not so!  The AMA Manual that covers AMA Team Selection and Team Managers, etc (the blue book) talks about the finals contest.  In either 1996 or 1998 (can't remember exactly) when I was Chairman of the Team Selection Committee, I spoke to HQ AMA about multiple selection contests.  HQ AMA agreed to us having such a program, prior to my presenting the multiple contestest proposal to the Committee.  This removed all arguements against the proposal based on what AMA allows.   AMA agreed to the proposal based on the vote of the program participants approving such a program.  I then presented the proposal to the committee, I think they voted 8 to 3 to present the proposal to the participants........... and we prepared a initial finals program that included two options, Program A.  the single finals format program, and B. The Multiple contest program.  The participants were then to vote for which one they wanted.     Unfortunately there was a bad situation at the Phoenix contest in January (just prior to sending out the program to the participants) that resulted in my pulling the multiple contest program (with the concurrance of all committee members).  I believe the detail spelled out in paragraph 4 above will ensure that there will be no repeat flyoff timing situations in the future.    George, Alex, Mike................   please review the propsal I have described above, email me and/or each other, suggest changes, let me know what you like and dislike, etc, ....... or call me (1-817-599-9247) and lets discuss anything and everything.  Please, bear in mind, the proposal could have been much tighter, much more directed at Lost Hills contests, which we all know is the best flying site in the States, but I tried to propose a program that would be acceptable by the majority of the Team Selection committee, and fair to program entrants.   Roger Simpson