SEN - 2337
- Category: Archive 2017
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Table of Contents – SEN 2337
- Hatschek's poem
- Timing Engine Runs - Part 94
- Livno WCh flyoff refly
- F1C engine run time keeping
- Dino on F1C Motor Runs
- E Timer Help
From: Alan Abriss
Thanks for posting my ole buddy Bob’s poem “Free Flight”. This needs to be read once in a while. Thanks again, I miss the old coot!
Editor’s Comment … we publish what our readers provide ..
Timing Engine Runs - Part 94
Dear ********** SCAT,
I read that engine runs should be timed on the ground as it is difficult
to do so in the air with other engine running, and that with electronic
timers (and accepting that some still use clockwork timers) the runs
should be consistent anyway. This is the approach we take in the UK
(including Scotland) with electric models where arguably the problem is
even harder (longer runs, greater altitudes, quieter motors).
Let's say we did this, what would be practical ? Well anything that
isn't directly a timed engine run (ie flashers, altitude loggers, WiFi
to the ground, etc) isn't a robust approach as there will be a finite
time between the actuator (eg servo) operating and the flood off working
and the brake stopping the prop. And practically at a Champs (let's
focus on this for the moment) you won't be timing a ground run at every
pole for reach flight for each competitor.
What could be practical is the requirement that a ground run is timed by
both timekeepers for each competitor during the contest. The timecard
could be pre-marked such that all knew for that round that competitor
'A' had to complete a ground run. Should the run be long to the point
where the prop stops then that's a DQ, end of, no arguments. Logically
when models are called in for processing then a ground run is required
as well using organiser's fuel and no changes to the model allowed.
Again non compliance is a DQ.
But life isn't always linear and Murphy can still bite as shown with
very long runs/crashes in Hungary. These are no problem but what of
just-over-the-4s runs, what is allowable ? Is 5s OK, maybe 4.5s, either
way clearly the run still needs to be timed 'as a check' but if found to
be an OR by a set tolerance (say 2s) then easy, still time the flight
but then 'process' the run afterwards. After all the runs are nice and
consistent aren't they.
Now we are making progress, more effort in some respects for the
timekeepers perhaps but no more issues with run problems, yes ? So let's
take it further, logically now you won't have an OR for anything other
than an deliberate act of setting the run too long, so let's ditch the
2nd attempt rule. Sure if you want to go close (and I've timed the real
exponent of this many times; take a bow Randy, always consistent and
always respectful of the timekeeper) then be it your won risk as
ANYTHING over 4s should now become an OR. No more that 4.049s is legal,
it has to be under 4.0s, end of.
Now we're getting somewhere. We have removed arguments over poor
timekeeping, have removed the inconsistency over legal long runs, but
have pushed the risk back on the competitor if you OR on the ground. So
job done. But I predict few if any 'C' flyers will agree with
PS While we're at it please let's ditch the 20s attempt rule, so no
advantage for failure. The fact that you can RCDT a poor flight down and
obtain a 2nd chance when otherwise you'd likely sub-max is just not
tenable anymore. Do it, do it now.
********** please add acceptable salutation in here
Livno WCh flyoff refly
From: Javier Abad )
Matt, I was also there and made to the fo, which I maxed, but when a refly was ordered ALL flyers had to refly.....and i dropped this second attempt.
Something similar to what happened on the first round for F1B in Hungary.
F1C engine run time keeping
From: Shayne McDonald
Just thought I would add a few of my thoughts to the current discussion regarding F1C engine run timing.
I myself am an active F1C flyer down here in Australia. I fully support Eddie Carrolls comments regarding processing of F1C competitors electronic timers to establish there engine shut off parameters prior to competition, hence eliminating the need of a flight line engine run time.
Please do not get me wrong , should a competitor still chose to use traditional mechanical timers they should respectively be accommodated by event organisers with a simple entry form tick of the box engine run time keeper requirement.
This philosophy wouldn't disadvantage any competitors using traditional equipment , but the reality is that a very very high percentage of F1C fliers are now running all electronic equipped models.
All that would be required is a simple programmer scan of the competitors models in processing and the data retrieved recorded , spot checks can be preformed on the field within seconds. A very simple solution. To this I would like to add this process is no different to what is currently used with competitors in both F1A & F1B , there tow lines and rubber motors are all subject to processing prior to a major event like the World Champs , why should F1C be any different?
The advantages of having a rule in place that that supports this process will eliminate the Human Factor error that currently exists with traditional engine run times , it will reduce the demands on timekeepers and event organisers respectively by relieving them of the due process of finding and training sufficient timers to split second standards needed to time an F1C motor run and also eliminate errors due to the inherent interfering noise levels associated with mass launch situations.
I hope this idea is acceptable to all in the current F1C community , one thing is for sure the current audible method is heavily flawed and a simple solution is always the best option.
Dino on F1C Motor Runs
From: Michael Achterberg
F1c motor runs. As always timers have trouble timing motor runs. Reality is almost impossible job, even for experience timers. Probably 98% of the time another motor is running and no way to tell by sound.. if timer uses bunt, at best they are going to be .5 to .7 sec too long. Without the experience of timing F1c it is a No win scenario. An LED FLASH or a strobe is much better, but the easiest and best way is to just preset electronic timer and run it on ground for timer inspection w stopwatch. And then forget it. If something happens in the air and motor is still running noticeably after 4 sec. It's an overrun. No arguing and no hassles. Almost all F1c flyers going to Etimers anyway, so make use of them. Those with mechanical can hook up a simple micro switch that is depressed with flood arm on timer. When flood releases the button releases and a flasher goes on as the circuit opens. Not too difficult to set up. Or u can have a little bladder filled with the smoke stuff RC guys use to blow that at exhaust and time the smoke burst. This works also. The heat from exhaust is plenty to ignite. Also, not a difficult thing to set up. But all the F1c flyers should put a proposal together and get it approved. It ain't that difficult and if everyone compromised a little bit it wouldn't take long to achieve a reasonable way to do it and get it passed by CIAM. It's a win / win. For flyers, organizers, and especially for the poor timers.
Additional possible engine timing solution in F1C
From: George Voss
Additional possible engine timing solution in F1C:
While not an F1C flyer, I thought about the timing situation. We that fly AMA Gas events and other F1 events suffer the same thing. The fact that we are dealing with humans always adds a possibility of error. While I liked the “LED flash” on the model idea, there are positions where the flash on the model couldn’t be seen. I’ve chased a number of models during “Night Flying” over the years and during the chase the planes attitude would blank the light for a short period of time. An off launch, the sun, other models, the timer looking away, can all keep the timer from seeing the flash if it’s on the model.
However, if the flash or a sound was generated where the timer is, i.e. a sound in an ear bud or on a small hand held device, there would be less chance for error. This would take away the lost time for sound travel or missing the flash all together. It would obviously require a transmitter and receiver of some sort, but I know as a timer if a sound went off in an ear bud and a flash on a hand held device went off when the motor stopped, it would take away a lot of human error. Obviously they would have to be verified by the controlling staff and the timer prior to launch or at the beginning of the day. With today’s electronics, (I’m not an expert) I’m sure we can come up with something affordable, individual per model i.e. a unique code generated by each transmitter, and accurate that will allow the full or closer to a full motor run in F1C.
E Timer Help
From: Gavin Manion
Sometime in the late 2000s I bought an E Timer and "setupper" together with
a hook and various bits from Michal Dvorak from off his late lamented F1A
info site. I never powered them up and, critically, lost the instructions
supposing that I could always download a fresh set. Now I would like to use
them in a single servo F1H, and the lack of instructions is not a help!
Three requests then of the FF diaspora:
Has anyone got a set of instructions (I think my timer is the mark 1, it had
two servos) that they could scan and mail to me?
Does anyone have any more of Michal's early stuff they may want to part
Does anyone have contact details for Michal? I believe he is still flying as
he featured in the 2013 W/C F1A flyoff.
Thanks in anticipation