SEN 1331<

Table of Contents - SEN 1331


Finals Chatter



From Chuck Markos
There are some points in Bill Shailor's evaluation of a Muncie finals that I would like to address.  First of all, the corn will be much less than full height at the end of June.  Growth of corn is dependent on factors of sunlight, moisture and heat, but even under the best conditions for corn planted in mid-May, 2 ft of growth is the maximum.   Wait, it gets better...most of the acreage planted in corn in 2009 will be planted in soybeans for 2010 as good agriculture practice to rotate crops.  The soybeans will be much shorter than the corn...less than 12 inches under ideal conditions.
Is Muncie really only a 2-minute field?  The scores from the 2009 Nats expose that myth as a false one.  F1A was the only event to have a shortened max, to 150 for the last round to keep the models on the field.  F1B had seven 3-minute maxes and was decided by a 5-minute fly-off.  F1C had seven 3-minute maxes and was decided after two fly-offs, the second on Friday morning with a 10-minute max (the winning flight was just short of 7 minutes).  Note that the three events were on consecutive days as a point of recall for Bill's memory.  To add to the consecutive days, the F1J event  on Thursday was won with a new record of 2465 seconds; that means fly-off flights of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 minutes plus a 365.
It should be noted that Bill's son John won the Mulvihill trophy (for the second time) by making the 5, 6 and 7-minute maxes plus a safety flight done through mid-day when thermals are strongest and may be expected to take models off the field.   The Moffett event went past the 7-minute max (on the same day as F1A) for the winner. 
It is standard contest management to inform contestants daily that landowner permission is required before going onto their property to retrieve models.   No chase vehicles are permitted on cropland or lawns.  
Chuck Markos
Editors Comment
Not so sure about the comments on  this year’s Nats – I think on F1B there were shortened rounds that caused me to d/t just short of the “warning track”.
Anf F1C was flown on Tuesday and the morning flyoff could not/was not flown until Friday?
From Walt Ghio and Bill Shailor
 Hi Bill,
I sure like your write up in the SCAT web news. The way I look at it
you can have four models processed for one day of flying and only get
four flights in, one per model. Up tree, in swamp, in corn, in un-
happy farmers home. Not the correct way to pick a team.
Who is suggesting Muncie for the finals? Committee member / members?   
Some non FAI flyer? Most be somebody who has a chase team and a lot of
Thanks for the support!
The idea has some momentum. Chuck Markos and Andrew Barron are primarily
behind this. Six of eleven Committee members have approved of the Muncie
Finals and it is going to be voted on by those entered in the program.
Paul Crowley is very much against this, as are a bunch of fliers from
around here. I got an email from Aram Schlosberg indicating that it
seems somehow desireable for guys to leave models in the field so they
have to test "the depth of their model box". Scary stuff. Add to that a
prohibiton of "motorized chases off field" Makes this even more
ridiculous. Too many concessions to jam a square peg into a round hole.
We need to get noisy about this, otherwise, Muncie will be the next
Thanks again,
From John Lorbiecki
At this point I do not have a gun in this fight, but from personal experience there is really no way that Muncie would be acceptable- Just from the instance of providing any resemblance of a flight line it would not work......Winds less than 10 "may" make it OK, but there is no way that anything over that would work...Plus, we know what it takes to get proper conditions for a flyoff- Sometimes it is three days to get any conditions that would be acceptable. I am, of course, looking at this thru the eyes of an F1C flyer....
As much as I love Muncie, it is not a FAI field..... 
From Bill Booth
Hi All,

I have always thoroughly enjoyed my trips to Muncie and love that my tools and models are not covered with 8 layers of dust when I get home.  That being said, I have also spent a lot of time (and some cash) retrieving models from the surrounding trees and terrain....on calm days as well.  I will continue to go to Muncie on occasion for the friendship and camaraderie, but even a NATS has a completely different intensity in the activity.  I can't imagine a Muncie Finals would be successful for all the reasons I've read and then some.

Bill Booth
From Chuck Markos
Misquoted again.  It was never stated that "motorized chasing off field" would be prohibited...only motorized chasing in croplands would be prohibited...not an unreasonable thing to require.
Chuck Markos
From Bill Shailor
I was only passing on what I was told. I would understand the prohibition about riding on others' property. We have practiced that at Muncie for as long as we've been flying there. I agree. Not an unreasonable requirement.
From Chuck Etherington
Hi Walt, Bill, et al,
Based on the judgement of each FFTSC member and input from his district
program participants, each member voted between the two submitted
proposals. The proposal with the most votes will be submitted to the
program participants for approval or rejection. That is your opportunity
to make your preference known by giving the proposal an up or down vote.
As with any democratic process, those that elect not to vote will, of
course, have to live with the choice of those who did.
Chuck Etherington
FFTSC District IX
From Walt Ghio
Hello Chuck,

Interesting reading.  Question.  What two submitted proposals?  The last information I received from AMA / Team Selection committee was the 2011 program.  Did I miss some mail?  Speaking of voting.  How about only the paid flyers vote and not people who sit on the sidelines.

From Roger Simpson
Hello Chuck E., Walt, Bill, et al,

Bill, Walt, thank you for starting this chain of emails, I hope they reach all of the program participants before the TSC tries to take a finals vote. A strong, open debate is certainly needed.

Chuck Etherington, reference the first sentence in your email, and I quote "Based on the judgement of each FFTSC member and input from his district program participants, each member voted between the two submitted proposals."   ........ Sounds very democratic, but somehow I, and possibly others in District VIII, were not asked  for our input.  Having been to Muncie, and having seen it first hand, there is no way I would even consider Muncie as a Finals site.

My brother has flown at the last 4 or 5 Nats at Muncie and likes the place. And for 2 minute contests it's okay, AMA Gas, F1J, F1P, F1H, F1G,  are all flown to 2 minute maxes.  When they have a windy day, and they do..... they pass on flying that day, they have 3 or 4 or 5 events to fly, and hope the next event will be flown on a calm day.  F1A, F1B, and F1C are normally flown to 3 minute maxes, and then the flyoff s the next morning.......... if it is calm enought and the wind is in just the RIGHT DIRECTION.  For a fact, 3 or 4 years ago I heard talk of having to wait for 3 or 4 days to get a morning good enough to have a F1C flyoff.

Hey, that is okay if you are at the Nats for a week to fly multiple events, but totally not acceptable for a 3 day finals with flyoffs on the 4th (reserve) day, if necessary, with people scheduled to fly home the day following the reserve day (day 4).

I have heard talk about the finals being scheduled for the Summer months. Seems to me that is when AMA has a 2 to 3 month long Nationals going on. Who would the Team Finals be sharing the field with?  RC Glider guys?  They were DRIVING all over the field while I was test flying, don't get in their way, they own the field!   Always before the Team Selections Committee insured there was no other model airplane contest going on when the finals were being conducted

One other thing, I kept this contest report from August 2007, it told me all I wanted to know as to why NOT to schedule a finals at Muncie.  In Chuck Markos's own words, I quote this excerp from SEN.

"47th FAI Invitational, August 24-25, 2007 Muncie, Indiana
From Chuck Markos

The Mini events were held on Friday, Aug 24 with rounds starting at 2 pm to
give travelers an opportunity to arrive in time.   Those who signed up to
fly F1G had a good contest, but only one entry was present for both F1H and
F1J, Jean Pailet.   The early morning was very pleasant for test flying,
but winds picked up to about 10 mph from the southwest by about 10 am.   By
the second round (3 -4:30 pm) winds were 10 - 20 mph from the SW and some
strong thermals were present.   Ed Konfes' model was in the air for 8
minutes and landed off the AMA property in a bean field.   The contest was put on hold until 5 pm and restarted.   Contestants were given until 7:30 pm to finish three flights, but one of those flights had to be in the 5 - 6 pm window.    The breezy and turbulent conditions made picking air
difficult and flights were upset even at good altitude.   By 7 pm, the wind
had died down as a major storm was approaching.the proverbial "calm before the storm."   At that time, a 2-minute flight traveled only about 100
meters.   The rain and lighting storm arrived about 9 pm, but was preceded by strong winds from about 7:30 pm.  The accompanying cold front brought a welcome reduction of temperature from the 95 degrees on Thurs and Friday to a high in the low 80s on Saturday.

The major events were held on Saturday, Aug 25 starting at 8 am with a bit of rain and a persistent SW wind of less than 10 mph.   The first two
rounds flew with a 3-minute max. But as the wind picked up a bit, it was
evident that any flights in the air for more than 3 minutes would be either
off the field or in the cemetery trees.   Maxes were reduced to 2 minutes
for the final 5 rounds as the wind gradually shifted to the west and then
NW by the 7th round without diminishing in velocity. Even with shortened
maxes, both F1B and F1C had dramatic changes in placement in the 7th round."

Roger Simpson
From Dave Edmonson
Team Selection site:
I have always enjoyed flying at Muncie, and with 15 mph winds the models do go off the field on a 3 minute flight.  But such people as Jim Parker, Don Zink, Lee Hines, Bob Sifleet, and others have never refused to fly a NATS there.
In my opinion, the site is probably more realistic for chosing a team who will go to fly in a similar site for the WCs.  I don't know of any other WC being held in a desert!
Hold down the bad mouthing of Muncie until someone comes up with something better.  It is probably the best site to accomodate free flight modelers east of Colorado.
Hope to see all of you at the Finals!
Dave Edmonson
Comment from Jim Parker to SCAT members
SCAT did submit a proposal to host the 2010 FAI FF finals. Also a group of flyers submitted Muncie. The next step is for the FAI TSC to select a proposal and then to have the  Team Selection participants vote yes / no.

Dallas and I made a mad drive and flew at the MMM contest this past weekend. I had several motives-- time with Dallas, Am Cup points and to have direct, recent  flying experience with regard to having the Finals in Denver in 2012.  Andrew Barron also came, he was the only one to max out for the win in F1A. We spoke about the possibility of the finals in Denver-- the field is big,  big thermals challenging thin air. The MMM have the experience to run large contest. George Batiuk was also there and we spoke and clarified that my Denver Finals talk was for 2012 and that SCAT was serious and would properly run the 2010 Finals.

I spoke to George B tonight, we should know the TSC  SCAT-Lost Hills vs Muncie selection in a week or so. I'll keep you informed.





Roger Morrell