SEN 1213 - 17 May 2008

Table of Contents   - SEN 1213  - 18 May 2008

  1. F1Q Slow or fast
  2. Salzer's F1Q
  3. Airtek Info
  4. Stonehenge Results
  5. Bob Gutail Update
  6. Andrew in the Baltics
  7. GB turned on by Q
  8. Rossi Screws

F1Q – Slow or Fast?

Bernie Crowe

With all due respect to Klaus, I have to disagree with his posting in SEN 1211. As an F1Q flier, I believe the evolution of the event should be determined on the flying field, not in a referendum, even in such an august publication as this one.

The beauty of the F1Q event as it stands today is, to me at least, the wide open nature afforded by the very simple rules set. It is one of the few FAI events that allow any degree of experimentation and development of a competitive airplane, and as such I find it very attractive. I believe many other fliers here in the USA are beginning to feel the same way. For those who don’t know them, the rules stipulate a maximum LiPo battery weight of 90g (or 125g if using NiCad or NiMH batteries), and a maximum motor run of 25 seconds to achieve a 3-minute max. That’s it. No restrictions on area, weight or control surfaces. Go have at it!

As Aram said in the last issue of SEN, it is possible to build a competitive, inexpensive airplane using strap-down, balsa technology. I have built three such planes of 300 to 400 sq ins area using 80W to 110W power systems, and they are certainly capable of doing 3-minutes plus on less than 25 second motor runs. Several others in the USA have done the same, while John Oldenkamp has built many lower-powered planes that are also competitive in F1Q as it stands today.

If there is anything wrong with the rules for F1Q it is that 25 secs is too long a motor run for many of the planes already flying. The rules allow for a reduction in motor run to 20, 15, and then 10 seconds in F1Q fly offs. CDs are avoiding such a protracted contest by cutting the run earlier, but even in fly off rounds using such short runs, the planes are capable of maxing in most conditions. l have on a couple of occasions competed my F1Q against AMA 1/2A gas-powered ships using the required 9 second engine run and have been competitive with them.

Most CDs in this country are therefore using their discretionary authority to reduce the motor run to 20 or sometimes 15 seconds throughout the five or seven rounds of the contest, or alternatively to institute a 4-minute first round max. I believe it is inevitable that this trend will continue and will become the norm rather than the exception. Thus it is already desirable to have a plane that can max with a short motor run, and as planes become more competitive it will become essential to be able to max on 10 seconds. Eventually, it is likely that the rules will be changed to mandate a shorter motor run.

Building a competitive F1Q ship today is not the problem. A bigger problem is the absence of F1Q from the event schedule at many of today’s contests. I have heard the argument used that there are few entries in F1Q, so why put it on the event sheet. Well, duh, if there aren’t any contests, there aren’t going to be many fliers. The chicken and egg situation comes to mind! So, organizers, please include F1Q in your line-up.

The FAI has created an event that is wide open to entry-level fliers, and open to innovative development as the class evolves. Electric flight has the allure of new technology, and the simplicity of button-push operation. Fliers will develop better and better planes and electric systems, while at the same time the battery and motor technologies will evolve to make even better performance possible. We have created a class of Free Flight that offers exciting growth in the years to come. Let’s leave the rules alone and watch what develops.

Salzer's F1Q

From: Tapio Linkosalo

> From: Aram Schosberg
> The starting point, however, is critical. Outside the States many
> have selected a F1B, but electrifying it will mimic its cruise and
> increasing the power will simply destroy it.

> From: John Oldenkamp

> Which brings me to the point of today's SCAT Electronic News query that you
> made: The F1Q should NOT follow the development mode of F1C.

In the Lithuanian contest I had the opportunity to witness Klaus' F1Q
flying. Even though the model is not pushed to the "edge", has much
smaller battery than allowed, the trim seemed a bit loopy thus probably
loosing some potential altitude, it still was way over-performing. In 20
second motor run it climbed at least 50% higher that wakefields do.
Staggering height!

So, I still think that limiting the performance is needed. I wholly agree
with John that cutting down the motor run to sub-10 seconds is not the way
to go with F1Q. I'd hate to see the class change into another one of
well-trimmed missiles. Some other route than cutting down the motor run is
needed to limit the performance.

Battery technology is developing all the time, so I do not believe that
simply restricting the battery weight would suffice. Some means of
limiting the power, i.e. voltage times amperage is needed. One option,
used in the RC classes is to measure the amperage for given voltage, and
set limits of the power related to the model weight. This might be one
option. Or, maybe just fixing (plus measuring) the maximum current to the
motor would suffice?

Anyway, Klaus' model seemed fun. I guess I'll need to try one converted
F1B myself, even if not fully competitive, but just to get some experience
on electric FF!


Airtek Info

Please note that none of the Airtek RDT systems, whether new or old, will interfere with each other.  There is a slight bit of confusion because I numbered the old systems with simple numbers from 1 to about 50 so that they could be easily indentified and tracked.  Each of these systems had their own unique code and they operated on a frequency in the 50MHz range.  When I started making the completely new systems about a year ago I started numbering them with serial numbers, but I started again from number 1.  But the new systems are all in the 902 to 928 MHz range and have unique codes in addition to unique frequencies.  So there could be a situation where say an old system #10 is on the field at the same time as the new system #10, but no worries, they will not interfere with each other as they are completely different.  The systems are easily identified as the old transmitters and receivers are both much larger than the new ones.


Thanks, Ken



Junior 1 2 3 4 5 ROUNDS OFF
Per Findahl S SWE 180 180 180 180 180 900 300
John Carter S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 277
Ron Kreetz S NED 180 180 180 180 180 900 224
Gilles Bernard S FRA 180 170 180 180 180 890
Boris Bernard S FRA 180 180 180 164 180 884
Alain Delassus S FRA 175 180 180 164 180 879
Dave Oldfield S GB 180 180 180 156 180 876
Edgar Bernard S FRA 141 180 180 180 180 861
Bill Colledge S GB 180 180 180 131 180 851
John Cooper S GB 180 180 180 129 180 849
Vincent Croguenne S FRA 155 180 178 180 149 842
Peter Williams S GB 180 180 180 117 180 837
Chris Edge S GB 180 180 180 180 117 837
Bernard Trachez S FRA 180 180 180 113 180 833
Alan Jack S GB 180 180 180 180 104 824
Jean-Pierre Chall S FRA 180 180 142 139 144 785
Peter Tribe S GB 180 180 180 180 64 784
Pavol Rovensky S SVK 180 180 125 114 180 779
Ivo Kreetz S NED 180 180 180 154 82 776
Didier Echivard S FRA 180 180 180 157 74 771
Tim Nicholson S GB 180 161 180 120 119 760
Michael Cook S GB 86 180 180 126 180 752
Stuart Darmon S GB 180 102 180 180 105 747
John Cuthbert S GB 85 97 180 151 180 693
Andy Crisp S GB 180 112 180 90 128 690
Martin Dilly S GB 180 122 180 115 56 653
Nick Bosdet S GB 0 0 0 0 0 0
Kris Best S GB 0 0 0 0 0 0

Maximums 21 20 23 10 15

Junior 1 2 3 4 5 ROUNDS OFF
Mike Woolner S GBR 180 180 180 180 180 900 420
Dave Greaves S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 359
Oskar Findahl J SWE 180 180 180 180 180 900 357
Brian Martin S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 349
Russell Peers S GB 180 180 180 180 178 898
Mike Woodhouse S GB 180 180 180 180 175 895
Peter Martin S GB 180 180 180 169 180 889
Geoff Stringer S GB 180 180 180 180 139 859
Klaus Salzer S AUT 180 180 137 180 172 849
Chris Chapman S GB 180 180 115 180 163 818
Neil Cliff S GB 180 180 101 151 180 792
Peter King S GB 180 180 180 180 0 720
Gerald Pink S GB 122 180 102 180 133 717
John Whitby S GB 121 104 165 142 105 637
Verena Greimel S AUT 30 74 180 180 105 569
Mike Evatt S GB 142 180 104 6 0 432
Stuart Darmon S GB 0 0 0 0 0 0

Maximums 12 14 10 12 6

Junior 1 2 3 4 5 ROUNDS OFF
Peter Watson S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 387
Alan Jack S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 349
Neil Allen S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 336
Stafford Screen S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 330
Ken Faux S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 326
Paul Rowledge S GB 180 161 180 180 180 881
John Bailey S GB 0 180 178 180 180 718
G Fuller S GB 0 0 0 0 0 0

6 6 6 7 7

Junior 1 2 3 4 5 ROUNDS OFF
Klaus Salzer S AUT 180 180 180 180 180 900 159
Trevor Grey S GB 180 180 180 180 180 900 158
G Fuller S GB 175 59 155 171 170 730
Peter Lang S GB 82 98 87 146 61 474
Teppo Sarpila S FIN 21 54 45 54 180 354

2 2 2 2 3

Bob Gutai Update
Bob Gutai underwent surgery on Thursday for an aneurism.  I talked to Marie last night and he is recovering in Intensive Care.  He will likely be held there till Sunday or Monday.  If his recovery goes as planned he will be released from the hospital late next week or early the following week.  Bob can't be reach at the hospital as long as he is Intensive Care.  As soon as he is moved into a normal room with a phone I will sent another update with the phone number he car be reached at.  Marie is spending most of her time at the hospital right not so if you call him at home leave a message and Marie will relay it to Bob when he is better.
Bob's recovery after his release from the hospital will take several weeks and he is likely is not going to be doing any flying until late this summer at the earliest.  Please keep Bob in you thought. 
If you would like to send Bob a get well card his home address is:
Bob Gutai
1302 N. 23rd. St.
Allentown, PA 18104 
Jim Bradley

Andrew in the Baltics

Lee asks in wonder about my Lithuania appearances. Delightful two days of world cup competitions. Superb field! Deniz Varhos (from Sweden) performance in Estonia Cup F1A flyoff very impressive. In 5 minute flyoff round his model DTed at 5:15 with sufficient height to have glided to at least 5:45, while other fine models around his did 5min or less.
I don't know anything about quantum physics, but I did go afterwords to a conference in Portugal where I was involved in talks on Information Theory and Statistics. For the inquiring minds that want to know, see page 16 of
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GB Turned On by ... Q?

I would like to say that I must agree with Mr Keville's assesment of Veronika Salzer's piece. How refreshing was that!

After running F1Q at the Maxmen the last few years, at Aram's prompting, I must say that I have become quite intriqued by the event, to the point that I am thinking of jumping into the ring. But I must say that I would like to see the event develope in the direction of the simpler models. What a great way to get young flyers involved. Keep it simple!

George Batiuk

Rossi Screws

From: Jon Fletcher

For Bob Mattes:
Rossi 15 screws are all M 2,5 x 0,45mm pitch.  If yours are not this someone has tapped out the holes.
Have set of ten screws (for glow, diesel is different) sitting here that I made if you are interested.  Machined out of high tensile steel, machine slotted and head profile to exactly match the original. Chemi blacked finish. $15.00
Regards - Jon Fletcher (jonfletcher'at'optusnet'dot'com'dot'au)

From: Dukie


Bob Mattes asked about the screwss in Rossi 15's. The designation is M2.5, and it is 2.5x.45 mm.

The screws he probably can't find the specs for are the OSmax III 15. They are a TBS thread and pitch. Something on the order of 2.7x.7. A little smaller than 4-40and about 44 pitch and unavailable, even from OS.

On the OS 15's, the easy way out is to run a 4-40 tap into the existing threaded hole and use the socket head 4-40 available almost everywhere. You may have to turn down the heads a bit.

On the Rossi, the 2.5x.45 S. H. screws are available from McMaster Carr in LA and other locations as well.

Take care

Doug G.

Roger Morrell