SEN 1260 2008

Table of Contents 1260 - 6 November 2008

  1. SW FAI Challenge
  2. Different Ideas from Don
  3. Looking for a Mini-Seelig
  4. Guy Mennano's Mother
  5. the Leeper in the leap Year
  6. George Xenakix and Frank Parmenter
  7. Jim's Finals Reveiew
  8. Team Selection Discussion on the NFFS Forum

2008 Southwest FAI Challenge       Boulder City, Nevada         October 25 & 26, 2008
For those that were able to maintain their sanity and enthusiasm after 10 days at Lost Hills for Livotto, Sierra Cup and The Finals, The Southwest FAI Challenge was once again (yawn) a perfect weekend for flying. For a brief moment on Friday afternoon and for a few minutes on Saturday, the wind meter spun up to around 15 mph+, but it dropped right back down to near zero as quickly as it came up. There were many anxious flyers on the line throughout the day on Saturday as we watched temperature spikes come and go with the wind meter reading “0” and the streamers motionless. All this on the dead flat and completely brush free 2 mile by 6 mile El Dorado Dry Lake Bed. 80 degrees during the day and we are usually illuminated with a spectacular sunset as we leave the field. Definitely one of our favorite places to fly!  

Saturday was a great day for our younger generation as 2008 Junior Team contender Miles Johnson outlasted veterans Henning Nyhegn and Jim Parker for the only clean score in F1A while World Champion Cody Secor ran up a new Senior F1P National Record on his way to winning F1P over Tony Robertson. Rich Rohrke shiny blue model took home the blue glassware when yours truly’s VIT line hung up in the F1B flyoff. Unfortunately, we were again without any F1C flyers. With a full plate of Americas Cup points on the table, this has always left us scratching our heads


A unique feature of the Southwest FAI Challenge is our Sunday morning everybody-in “Espresso Flyoff”. This is a glide-to-the-ground round flown in a separate 10 minute window for each event. This is not Round 1 and has separate awards for the winners. It does however, provide us with a tie-breaker should mid-day flyoff rounds not determine a winner and more important it gives every contestant a chance to fly in a real flyoff situation with every other contestant.  In the three years we have used this system, we have yet to need it to resolve any of the mini events. This year’s winners were John Clapp in F1G, Jim Parker in F1H, Tony Robertson in F1J and Bernie Crowe in F1Q.


When the mornings are like they have been on Sunday the last few years, we always wonder if we will have perfect scores across the board in the mini events. We almost did again this year. Of the 10 contestants and 50 flights recorded, we only had 4 dropped flights in five rounds. All three F1H flyers made the flyoffs that saw Norm Smith top Jim Parker and Lee Hines in the 4-minute round. Peter Brocks put up a clean 4-minute round to come out on top in F1G over Mark Belfield and Jack Emery. Tony Robertson once again took home first in F1J with a perfect 5-round score.


We were very happy to see Bernie Crowe and his fans come out and put on a great show in F1Q. He and Dick Wood see-sawed back and forth throughout the day with Bernie finally coming out on top. The fans were actually Bernie’s family who had gathered in Las Vegas to celebrate his 70th birthday which by appearances, seemed to be going very well! Happy birthday Bernie and many more!


It is always nice to see some of the local flyers come join us as well. Jon Zeisloft, one of the original organizers of this meet is always out to take his shot at F1G gold. Robert Hodes and Gerald Antonucci brought along another local flyer Bill Holt and the three of them ran up some pretty good P-30 scores. It was Robert’s turn for first place this year with a clean score through four flights.


We owe a tremendous thank you to Jill Rowland-Lagan, the Boulder City Chamber of Commerce CEO. Had she not stepped in and made the application for the lake bed use permit in the name of the Chamber of Commerce, this meet would not have happened. For those of you who joined us this year, please take a minute to look through the goody bag Jill and her staff prepared for us and next year, patronize those local businesses who helped make the 2008 Southwest FAI Challenge possible.


Miles Johnson                      210    180    180    180    180    180    180                 1290        

Henning Nyhgen                 210    180    171    180    180    180    180                 1281

Jim Parker                             210    180    180    180    180    126    180                 1236

Peter Brocks                         210    180    180    180    180    126    111                 1167

Randy Secor                         210    180    180    147    180    107    123                 1127

Lee Hines                              210    180    180    172    094    110    180                 1126

Don Zink                               210    169    180    180    180    094    113                 1126

Norm Smith                          210    171    150    139    180    084    180                 1114


Rich Rohrke                        240    180    180    180    180    180    180    189       1509

Bill Booth                             240    180    180    180    180    180    180    037       1357

Jack Emery                           240    180    180    180    180    180    176                 1316

Richard Wood                      240    180    180    171    180    180    180                 1311

George Batiuk                      240    180    180    180    169    180    180                 1309

Jon Clapp                             240    063    021    172    058    117    180                 0851

No Entries

Cody Secor                           180    180    180    180    180    180    180    240+300+360     2160*

Tony Robertson                   180    000    000    000    000    000    000                                  0180


* New National Record: Senior F1P !!!!!!!! Congratulations Cody!!!!


Peter Brocks                         120    120    120    120    120    180+240              1020

Mark Belfield                       120    120    120    120    120    180+149              0929

Jack Emery                           120    120    120    120    120    140                       0740

George Batiuk                      120    120    120    116    112                                  0588

John Clapp                           120    120    120    090    120                                  0570

Jon Zeisloft                           120    120    120    120    080                                  0560


Norm Smith                          120    120    120    120    120    180+240              1020

Jim Parker                             120    120    120    120    120    180+225              1005

Lee Hines                              120    120    120    120    120    180+132              0912


Tony Robertson                   120    120    120    120    120                                   0600


Bernie Crowe                  & nbsp;     120    120    054    120    120                                   0534

Richard Wood                      090    120    065    099    120                                   0494


Robert Hodes                       120    120    120    150        510

Gerald Antonucci                                120    120    120    143        503

Bill Holt                                 112    101    112                   325

Espresso Flyoff
F1G        John Clapp                           212
F1H        Jim Parker                             218

F1J          Tony Robertson                   276

F1Q        Bernie Crowe                        332

Different Ideas from Don


Whatever format we adopt for the finals, I believe the flapping and cycle riding under the models be eliminated. I’m not on the team because of cycle maxes achieved by my competitor’s friends.


This is free-flight and once a model is launched, there should be no other outside interference with that flight other than the air we launched in.


Furthermore, RCDTs should not be an option in the first 20 seconds of flight unless a crash in eminent.

  • 3 days of flying – 7 rounds per day
  • All events held simultaneously
  • 2 flyers per pole
  • Each flyer times and flies
  • With the change of round, the fliers rotate in opposite directions, one goes up one pole, the other goes down one pole. Everyone times a different person each round.
  • Many rounds equal the finest most consistent fliers should make the team
  • Everyone times a different person each round
  • Program is not complicated to administrate
  • With many rounds an early drop means you should keep flying
  • With each event being flown at the same time, the glider fliers will not have to run through the flight lines and all the equipment of the F1B & F1C fliers
Don Zink

Looking for a Mini Seelig
From:This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Looking for a Selig mini-combo timer. Does anyone out there have one you would part with?

Buzz Averill

Guy Menanno's Mother


Mr. Thorkildsen emailed me with some bad news. Guy Menanno's mother
passed away from injuries due to an incident when she was struck by a
motorist while walking. I do not know the details, but the funeral
services information is below if any SCAT or FAI types are interested.

> Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 11:51 AM
> HI Guys, Talked to Guy Menanno this morning and got the
> information about his mom's funeral.
>                          10738 Havenhurst Ave.
>                          Granada Hills, Ca. 91344

> Rosary at 4:30pm
> Mass at 5:00pm with reception to follow.
> The church is on the corner of Havenhurst and Chatsworth
> Ave, just a couple of blocks from the Menanno house on
> Tulsa.

the Leeper in Leap Year

Has anyone noticed that Lee Hines AKA Leeper,made the team in a leap year ?

Lee Campbell

A guy who keeps track of such stuff.

Georges Xenakis and Franck Parmenter

I am very sad to read about Georges and Franck...
Georges Xenakis has been for many years the US representative for Free Flight, at the CIAM meetings. Many years, we met in Paris, and Georges had always a nice message for me, from Bob WHITE. Once, I gave him a big box to carry with him back to California: it was an F1C model that Roger SIMPSON had left in the corn fields of Poitou. This model had been found after the contest and I made a strong box for Georges to carry it back. The cover was screwed to the box, and in case the customs would have liked to look inside, I gave a small screw driver to Georges... The year after, he gave me that screw driver back... I still have it.
An other story: in 1991, we had a World Champ in Zrenjanine, former Yugoslavia. It was the beginning of the big troubles in this country, and exceptionnally, the USA team was formed only of the competitors and team manager( no supporters). Georges was flying F1B. Bob Isaacson was also in the team. I was in the French team, flying F1B. At a dinner, I brought a goat cheese that I had brought from home, especially for Bob Isaacson who loved them. After dinner, Georges came to me and told me that this cheese was exactly the same cheese that his Grand mother who was from Greece, was making when he was a kid. He had never got the opportunity to eat some since that time...There was tears in his eyes...
Georges was a very nice man, well appreciated at the Free Flight Technical meetings of CIAM. We'll miss him.
I was introduced to Franck Parmenter by Bob WHITE. Franck was making very good models, and at that time, each flyer was making his own design... Francks models were different from others, with longer moment arms... I remember that. I was very impressed by Franck and by his models.
Pierre Chaussebourg.

Jim's Finals review

The following was sent in with my 2009 Finals Questionnaire.
To:  USA FF Team Selection Committee                                                             Oct.30, 2008
From: Jim Parker
Overall, I gave an “Excellent” rating for the running of the 2008 FAI FF finals. The organizers, CDs and helpers did an outstanding job amidst the difficult weather conditions at the beginning of the contest and I give them my most hearty thanks.  As I wish I could write this letter as one of the Happy Nine, alas not so! Nevertheless I must write.  Fellow flyers, Please let your agreement or disagreement be known to your TSC representative.
The delay of the third round on the first day, in my opinion was incorrect. Unlike any other contests held in the USA, every flyer has a timer at the start of the round and has 40 minutes from the end of the last round to retrieve, repair etc. Every flyer is able to fly up to 4 models per day. That is everyone has the same opportunity to fly at the beginning of the round
Delaying a round for reasons for even normally accepted reasons could and has results in inequitable results for those flyers that fly in the pre-delay difficult conditions.  Those that choose to not fly in these difficult conditions are rewarded with better conditions. Some that flew in the difficult pre-delay conditions are punished with a dropped score.
I suggest that the Team Selection Committee modify Section E, Interruption of the Contest, to the Team Selection program with additional guidelines for the Head CD to follow during the finals. The following is an idea for such guidelines.
USA FF Final Round Delay and Cancellation Guidelines:
0 to 10 minutes: Repeat the Round (all flyers re-fly)
11 to 20 minutes: Delay round, allow all non-max flyers to re-fly at the re-start of the round (maxed flyer keep max)
after 20 minutes: ONLY for clear safety reasons delay round, allow all non-max flyers to re-fly at the completion of the round otherwise round flown to completion regardless of conditions.
I can see that this could lead to difficult position for the CD with flyer(s) petitioning for a delay after they drop a flight but that is the job of the Head CD.  This would also reward flyers that drop for reasons other than the difficult pre-delay condition but I believe it is better the error on the benefit to the flyer side.
As long as we choose to select our teams with 14 or fewer rounds, every round is critical and we need to do all we can to make it fair. Or put another way, we have decided that everyone flying on the same field is needed to make the team selection process fair, therefore it is critical to fairness to fly in the same conditions.
The proposed change is simple, easy for the flyers to understand and ultimately make the difficult CD decision making easier. As Buzz put it, “By the book”.
Thanks you for your consideration.
Jim Parker

Team Selection discussion on the NFFS Forum


I open the door, see SEN #1258, Nov 3 2008.

I've opened a post on the NFFS forum <> under: FAI Models and Flying.
In my  SEN message I wrote:
"In the anticipation of the elimination of the 75 minute qualification, ideas have been generated to reward those that do fly over the full two year program. Aram Schlosberg and I discussed the idea of using AmCup points to reward Finals regular round & quot;make up time". There are various ways this could be done but my intuition says this is too large of a change for the participants and / or TSC to accept at this time. I hope my intuition is wrong."

The purpose of this post is to discuss the various ideas, currently from Parker, Schlosberg , Markosand Potti. Then to drive to a consenous and send a proposal to the TSC. The forum has the ability to take Polls which will aid our closure.

I encourage those that wish to particpate to send their thoughts and ideas to both SEN and the NFFS Forum post.

Jim Parker

Roger Morrell