SEN 853 - 16 Feb 2004
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SCAT Electronic News 16 Feb 2004 issue 853
Table of Contents
=================
Max Flash
Max Comments
lost binos - Shirley
SCAT message - vanWallene
discus launch - Shirley
F1A Hanger Sale - Kowal
More F1-A notes from the ROCKETAERO works - Rocket
Fostering Communication and Technical Discussion Within the Free Flight Community - Tomash
Great Grape Gathering - Geneseo NY - June 25th-27th. - Moseley
Re:Low tech trimming. - White
Discus Glider Launch
Jorgen's list - Montes and Wantzenriether
Lurking with a Discus
Notes from a Lurker
Yankee Lurker
F1A parts for Sale
DLG Vs DL F1B - Skykieng
Thanks
Max Flash
=========
to 9 min round
A - Coussens [T - or was it Mary*]
B - Bradley
C - Kirilenko
* Sorry folks it's an in joke you had to be at the banquet , and listening !!
Max Comments
============
Just back from Lost Hills - Great Contest thanks to efforts of George
Batiuk, Bob Norton, numerous helpers and perfect weather.
For me the most positive aspect was the high level and quality of the junior
participation. At the America's Cup banquet a bunch of juniors got
themselves a table and there were so many they could not all fit at the table.
George offered special awards for the 5 highest junior times and
4 of the 5 maxed out the whole 14 rounds, 5 place was 6 year old Logan
Teterick did 13 maxes with his F1A , inspite of only coming up to the
waist of Peter Barron the top junior scorer. Great effort on the part of young
flyers, their families and those such as Art Ellis, George Batiuk,
Bob and Brian van Nest, Jim Parker, Mary .... et al who have support the Junior
FAI program one way of another.
lost binos
==========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
just returned from lost hills and discovered that my nikon binos are
missing they were borrowed from me by a timer in the f1c 7 minute flyoff
and not returned if you have them please let me know thanks.
dave shirley
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SCAT message
============
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Dear all
I have been reading the latest discussion on the declining availability
of technical information in modern days with some interest.
And it created some thought, as to what would be the possible cause of
such freeze. Triggered by the word 'secrecy' I was thinking: this is not
something of modern days. Surely, 20 years ago, this buzz- word existed
just the same.
So maybe we should look a bit further. What has substantially changed
over the last years? Free Flight as we know it has become
commercialised, started by the drop of the builder of the model rule
BOM. Surely, this change has brought a fair amount of positive aspects.
It has cut the free flight F1 flyers in three groups:
1. The industry, a (relatively small) group of active flyers producing
complete models or parts to make a business
2. The users, a big group of flyers buying and using the products of
group 1 above
3. The builders of models or BOM, a diminishing group who both design,
develop, build and fly their own models.
Now lets have a closer look at each of these, and their incentive for
publishing new, inventive and/or creative ideas.
1. The industry:
There is no incentive for the industry to publish new ideas before them
being marketed. In the 'real world' this would not be a very clever
move, even industrial suicide if you like.
Of course, patents could be applied for. With the application of a
patent, the idea is published and the owner gets protection on his
invention. As long as the inventor or proprietor pays the fees involved
to get a patent and to keep the patent alive. In Free Flight, these
costs are in no relation to the profits made. The market being simply
too small. Looking to the 'real world' in a similar situation, new ideas
are kept secret in order not to give the competition 'the edge'. And
let's be honest, in FF industry this is not much different. Can anyone
tell me one free flight related 'industrial invention', which was made
public before it was successfully marketed in the last years?
2. The users:
By definition, a flyer who buys and flies 'turn key' models has no
incentive to come up with new ideas. And even if new ideas would see the
light in his or her mind, there is probably no workshop or skill to
develop them, let alone test them. Those ideas die a silent death. Many
potential inventions evaporate before being materialized.
3. The BOM
This group, the Builder Of Models, is potentially the only one from
which useful ideas might spring. Their ever-lasting quest to improve
their design is a fertile ground for good inventions. The big question
is, would these flyers have any incentive to publish? Well, I can speak
from experience that some ideas, which were made public through e-mail
or other means, were implemented by group 1 before I finished one year
of testing. And this, without giving credit to the BOM who came up with
the ideas in the first place. The ideas are presented in home pages and
commercial adds as being the intellectual product of their business,
without giving credit to its originators.
And in a world without patents, this is all perfectly legal. Even more
so, in past times it has made Free Flight to the high level it is now.
But it isn't very motivating for this last group to get in the open.
Imagine being in a contest and beaten by someone flying a factory model
with some of your ideas which you didn't have time to test for
competition level. Surely a good reason to keep things secret from then
on.
And finally, performance of state of the art F1 models has risen to such
high levels, that any serious improvement requires huge investments. Hot
state of the art electronics (being obsolete in about one year time),
CNC milled moulds just to name a few.
Such investments do not see any return, apart from competition success
and resulting recognition. The F1C wing folder being a perfect example.
I hope these thoughts didn't' t offend anyone. Surely there are a lot of
flyers not belonging to any one single of the groups above, but more of
a mixed style flyer. But surely, the sketched philosophy on incentives
still applies.
thermals and loads of good ideas!
Allard
discus launch
=============
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all this talk about discus launch got me thinking. if I mount the start
switch on my geared model at the wing tip and then wound it up discus
style I could get higher than anyone.all I need then is one suicidal
volunteer to hold the other wingtip until I'm ready to go. just imagine
the respect I will get if I can just hang on to it let alone figure out
when to let go.does someone have a computer simulation to figure out the
proper rpm or would that be Human Revolution Per Minute that would be
the perfect launch speed? I just hope its not declared unsafe before I
get it perfected.
any suicidal volunteers should contact me with a resume including a
psychiatric evaluation. nothing but crazies for this project.
by the way don't tell anyone, I'm trying to keep this a secret!
Dave.
F1A Hanger Sale
================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I have been looking at this stuff for too long. Time for someone to put it
to use.......
2- Pim Ryter F1A style transmitters on 143.6 with one battery. $60 for the
pair.
1- Vasily F1A tow hook and wing wiggler $25 for the set.
1- S-80 servo with wing wiggler attachment on servo arm -$15
1- Aluminum -Carbon F1A tail boom 15.6 gram - $10
3- Bradley F1A tow hooks and timers - $50 for the lot.
1- 4' x 28" clear micafilm $10
1- KSB Type IV 30 second fuel cutoff timer $15
1- F1G coupe winder. Converted from an old double geared drill with a
right angle padded handle and torque gauge added. has wound
at least a thousand coupe motors. $45
1- P-30 torque meter -$5
1- Beaue coupe with button timer. In good shape. needs a retrim due to not
flying for a couple of years. $30.
1- Aluminum flight box - powder coated. 8W 11H 47.5 L hinged with locking
latches and recessed handle foam lined $80.
1- Galvanized steel flight box. 12W 8.5 H 48L with lockable latches, foam
lined. $30.
1- Jesse James F1H / A1 tow line glider Kit New in box. $20.
1- Comet Kit A-26 Invader 30" span $10.
1- Comet Kit Taylorcraft 54" span $15.
1- Easy build models Kit FF-8 Wakefield Energure $20.
15 sht "GM" silkspan $7.50
11 Shts Japanese Tissue assorted Yellow, Blue and orange. $10.
1 Lb + December 97 Tan2 stored in box in sealed bag in air conditioned
closet. $20.
I can ship all the small items anywhere in the US for $5. The flight boxes
are oversize and will cost about $20 to ship. The coupe
I will have to figure out if somebody wants me to ship it. call me at home
in the evenings or E-mail to discuss (909) 899-6879
Ken
More F1-A notes from the ROCKETAERO works
=========================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
You want action? Try this one on for size:
-1meter wing span sheet balsa test model.
Different size and angle tail with independently adjustable wings
(carbon rod and set screw trailing edge stops with a light rubber band
to hold in place.
-V tail
one piece 130 deg (included) nonmoving stabilizer . The trick here
was/is to find the approximately angle and size that will provide
enough stability yet allow the wing/spoileron to control the aircraft
movement. The big question will be how it performs in thermals
-independent pitch variable wings
I have gone through numerous iterations and have discovered that the
yawing tendency will override the lift of the wing and without the
rudder at speed and this is our battle while circle towing in the wind
-spoileron
this really is the perfect solution for circle tow. A 1 cord long
20% of C wide spoiler leading edge positioned at 20% of C.
Originally I had placed this at the outboard end of the right main
panel (right turning). I was having to use a much larger spoiler than
originally envisioned. So by slowly moving it outboard on thee wing I
traded a little inertial mass and complexity for more control leverage
moment of for control moment)
-full size testing
After throwing the 1m glider across the living room at least 500 times
I cut one of my beat up Nordic stabs and glued it back together at an
angle, stripped the guts out of the fuse, and just rigged it up for
straight tow and glide. There was no spoiler or wing movement I just
wanted to get it in the air to see what it would do so with a little
turn in the tow. This is really fun! I towed it up about ten times
and did not see anything to keep me from going forward with the project.
One of my bottle necks was a controller -I had been playing with Airi
S's timer but it was running on windows 98 and I had a laptop failure
two years in a row after flying to california contests-errrgg (Roger, I
am still interested-the middle of march?).
Another stopping point was the fuselage pod and towhook arrangement.
This I have mostly resolved by just spending a few hours late at the
shop cutting pasting bagging cooking -my mobypod.
Then there is time. I told my self, after reading the SEN before last
that I would try to stay on top of my projects so I have something to
share with 'our='community.
I will put up some pictures on the Nordic Cafe soon.
Let me know what you think!!!
FLY MAX WIN !!!
ROCKET
Fostering Communication and Technical Discussion Within the Free Flight Community
=================================================================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
I think Jorgen Korsgaard has touched upon something important with his
comments regarding the "slumber" of the Free Flight community. Clearly the
community is not benefiting from the exchange of technical information and
new ideas that the Internet now makes possible. Some of this may be due to
the "secretive" habits of some who do not want to betray their advantage,
but I believe it is mostly due to inadequate infrastructure for effective
online communication.
FWIW, here is an example of an Internet forum that really promotes the
exchange of ideas, information and techniques:
http://www.clstunt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi
This is the Stuka Stunt Control Line Forum, and it is first rate.
Participants can post pictures as well as text. But such an effective tool
comes with a price. Leonard Neumann spends a lot of time, effort, and money
to keep this forum running. The benefit to the Control Line community is
profound. Excellent communication and information exchange between a
diverse cross section of participants, including those at the top of the
sport, in this case, Control Line Precision Aerobatics (Stunt). This is an
example of the very best the Internet can offer in terms of fostering
communication and discussion. But it requires considerable dedication on
the part of some individuals, and a significant financial commitment, to
keep the infrastructure up and running.
I believe Free Flight would benefit greatly from such a forum, but somebody
would have to make the commitment to establish, maintain, and pay for it.
In my opinion, the NFFS would be the appropriate organization to do this,
but I don't know if the necessary financial and manpower resources are
available within the NFFS to take this on.
Thermals,
Andrew Tomasch
Great Grape Gathering - Geneseo NY - June 25th-27th.
=====================================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
This is for anyone within a 1500 mile radius of Geneseo, NY ... or even
further .....
pack the car ... hit the road ... come, fly! Do we have events for you
... !
Such as ...
1/2A Nostalgia
ABC Nostalgia
Nostalgia Rubber
1/2A Classic Gas
AMA ABC Gas combined
Classic Gas (Bob Gordon Trophy)
Classic Diesel Duration
P30
Classic Wakefield
HLG/CLG combined
FAC Embryo Endurance
FAC Two-Bit Oldtimer
FAC Golden Age Civil Scale
Cloud Tramp
Unlimited Towline
Unlimited Rubber (Mulvihill)
SAM Commercial Rubber
SAM Small Rubber Fuselage
SAM Large Rubber Fuselage
SAM SMall Rubber Stick
SAM Large Rubber Stick
Special events - Dakota, Mimi, Ladies Cloud Tramp Mass Launch,
Ebenezer, and a Dawn Unlimited Rubber flight, for the Dave Andrews
Trophy, for those who want to get up early. Also a special award for
the top placing Morgan/Easybuilt Wakefield in the SAM Large Fuselage
event.
Even (shhh!) some SAM R/C events .....
A barbeque, too ....
For full day-by-day event listings, rules, etc on Word, please contact
the Contest Manager - Jim Anderson - at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. or the
delegated CD .. me ...
Re:Low tech trimming.
=====================
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Hello Roger,
Here's something for the theorists to chew over.
For many years there seems to have been two main ways to trim gadget free
rubber models with right handed props:
(1) Right power/right glide, using right rudder and/or right side thrust,
with differential wing warps to prevent spiralling in.
(2) Right power/left glide, using right side thrust to counteract left
rudder and tail tilt.
Lately, on some models I've been using a third method for which I claim no
particular originality, as I'm sure others must have hit on it before me:
(3) Trim the glide so that it stalls when flying straight and then give it
plenty of rudder to overcome the stall. If just left in this condition it
would probably chase its tail or spiral in on the first burst of power. The
trick now is to apply just enough left side thrust to stop this happening to
produce a steady climb and glide in small right hand circles.
Please wake up John Barker and Co. and tell me where I've gone wrong!
Cheers,
John H White.
Discus Glider Launch
=====================
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In the 1950/51 winter Allen Galloway then with the Chicago Aeronuts built
a tailess glider. I lived across the road from a snow covered farm field
where we attempted to do hand launched testing one windless bright night
After not finding any place for a conventional hand grip on the model I
tried a wingtip launch. It was a light model so the drag to weight ratio
was high resulting in attaining only 25 to 30 ft. heights. As I recall
the model seemed to rotate about it's vertical axis and then quickly going
into normal flight.
I hope to see what goes on now sometime soon.
Otto aka Toot
Jorgen's list
=============
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Roger,
After Jorgen Korsgaard published in SEN his Wachet auf! ( thanks
Jorgen!) I wrote to Jean W about that, indicating that it was important
that we should contribute to this discussion. Our point of view- shared,
I am sure, by many others- is to try to understand the theoretical
reasons behind the developments that we see in the field, and to write
about them in terms accessible to most modellers. I sent Jean a list of
the topics that seemed to me of importance, many coincide with Jorgen's.
To these topics Jean contributed additional ones and added to the
comments at the end. The list is quite rough, but at least it expresses
our unease with the state of affairs in the Free Flight field. Much can
be added, and the list and the thoughts polished, but then it will lose
the element of timing. So here it goes.
Sergio Montes and Jean Wantzenriether
We consider further discussion on these topics would be most valuable:
* Propellers: for design and development we are at the stage left by
Glauert in 1934, little of importance has been added. The mysteries of
the action of VP are still there; no convincing explanation of the VP
benefits has been given, except through success in the field.
*Airfoils: not much experimentation in the low Re region in the last 50
years. Some of the available CFD techniques appear useful, but results
are still controversial in the region Re= 10,000 to 100,000.
*Stability problems: some advances but still the non-linear stability is
still far from being understood.
* Effect of mass distribution: the reaction of the model to an external
perturbation depends on its mass distribution. This is well known in
full-size aviation but hardly touched in model aerodynamics.
*Overall propulsive efficiency: the development of geared propellers has
brought out contrasting experimental evidence coming from several camps.
Paul Rossiter has done valuable work lately examining the problem from a
theoretical point of view.
* Materials: probably the most fertile field, as changes in this regard
have revolutionized model construction techniques.
*Aeroelasticity.... as pointed out by our friend John Barker.
* Rubber testing: Testing techniques have been consolidated, but much
remains to be done to understand the mechanics of the complete motor.
The questions that Rene Bahout posed in the 1950's have been largely
ignored and only the most utilitarian tests have been repeated. He
showed for example that the quality of the lubricant is of little
importance, many tests afterward report negligible differences in the
output of a motor with different lubricants.
*Trimming methods: there has been progress in the understanding of the
3-D dynamics of rubber models ( JW), but much could be done with better
instrumentation.We have not heard of similar attack on the problem of
power models.
* Techniques for finding thermals and downdrafts. Not much progress here
in the last 40 years.
* Teaching methods... and their results in terms of appreciation for the
theoretical movement. More than one method exist : fly immediately //
build a long time then fly // build from scratch // from kits // etc.
The teachers do not write much about their important task. Specially
about the inflow of theory into their lectures.
As for why the perceptible cessation of discussion on these and other
topics, we think the problem we are facing is one related to the
interaction between contest success and developments in aerodynamical
understanding. For many years aerodynamical knowledge was felt to be
necessary to improve contest success. A similar example can be derived
between the relation of racing and the motor car industry. For many
years the manufacturers reaped benefits from racing: there were great
improvements in fuels, oils, tyres, engine design, brakes, etc. This is
no longer true and the racing industry has now few if any large car
manufacturers sponsoring them...racing is a circus, that is well
understood, and it performs really no useful development function anymore.
The question is whether contest flying has come to a point where
aerodynamical knowledge is not appreciated, nor even appears essential
for success in the field. The ARTF and RTF models bring already an
advanced degree of sophistication in design, which of course is lost to
most users. We believe that this is the main reason for the stoppage of
inquiries into many of the problems mentioned above: The successful
flyers and designers of RTF's know enough to build and market these
artifacts, what more can be desired? and as for sharing the knowledge,
why should they? From a commercial point of view there is no denying
theirs is the right decision.
Perhaps mention should be made of the efforts of the NFFS Sympos, FF
Forum and Free Flight Quarterly of providing a tribune for this type of
discussions. It is quite interesting that with some exceptions (
Findhal, Blackam, for example...a few others) the really successful
flyers have little to say or will not say much. In the complex universe
of Free Flight, their world is understandably quite different from ours,
who are more interested in the abstract reasons behind events. Their
interest is the flow of adrenalin coming from the physical and emotional
challenge of winning, and of course many times on the practicalities
needed to achieve that. Not to forget the comradeship - because all on
the field are not high level competitors - most of our local events are
a family weekend with barbecue and so on...
None of us ( ? ) is a professional journalist, and this is an additional
obstacle (money... publishing knowledge... time and travel for
interviews...). But here co-operation is still effective and could help
again, and this can be a target as well.
Lurking with a Discus
=====================
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Roger,
Don't scare us saying you have thoughts of quitting SEN. As a "lurker",
I along with many others, really enjoy the news. This latest discus launch
HLG stuff is particularly interesting. One reader says you can get over 50
meters on a R/C discus launch glider. I have watched Bruce Kimball discus
launching his R/C gliders. Just omit the R/C and you may have a winner.
I actually do a lot in promoting C/L Vintage Diesel Combat along with
flying various F/F classes. Did you know that Biggles is a British
National Diesel Combat Champ from a past life? What with leading
"Outkast" band he is a busy fella.
Keep up the good work please. Some of us "lurkers" may surprise you with
the odd e-mail.
Cheers, Mel Lyne
[Biggles has even been seeing flying combat or should it be Kombat
over here .. and that does not count his aggresive F1H flying style !]
Notes from a lurker
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Hi, Roger
Boy, that's one way to get action - threaten to quit! Like all the others
who have written recently, all I can say is: "Please don't. You've been an
inspiration to us all, even those, like me, who have only read with interest
what has been said in SEN. We haven't contributed, mostly because we feel we
can't, being beginners or non-competitors, or otherwise a little too
reticent to put our thoughts on public view."
So, sticking my head above the parapet, here are a couple of my thoughts on
recent goings-on.
1) Discus launch for F1B. An inspired idea! I wonder if it can be done
(effectively)? Some have suggested that it probably would be banned. But how
could it? The javelin launch, combined with DPR, has been around for years.
The discus is just another way of launching (or screwing ourselves into the
ground, as a wit might put it). What would the FAI have us do, just let the
model fly out of our hand while reclining in our lawn chairs? (Maybe not a bad
idea that - it would make F1B a "nostalgia" event - but I'm just kidding).
2) Off-line correspondence. While I'm not suggesting for a moment that this
should be discouraged, as has been pointed out the thoughts that are
presented could easily be of wider relevance, if only they were put out on SEN.
I appreciate John Barker's view that such private correspondence can easily be
dispensed with not a word of thanks. It's happened to me on many occasions,
but I think it is a phenomenon of email in comparison to old fashioned letter
writing (or maybe I'm just old-fashioned, and not in touch with modern mores?).
3) Attachments to SEN. By all means put weighty/long/illustrated items out
as attachments. If anyone is excited by the thrust of the topic, they'll
download it, even on a dial-up connection. They only proviso would be for SEN
to check for viruses.
4) Support for SEN. A lot of us (lurkers like me included) appreciate the
free format of the newsletter. That is not to say they (we) wouldn't be
prepared to pay for it. If it's as good as we think it is, then why not?
Editorial/secretarial help may be needed to keep it going, and perhaps improve
it. I'm not knowledgeable on email subscription services, but I'm sure
someone out there is. If it's thought a good idea, let's go for it. After
all , subscriptions to model magazines cost quite a bit, and few have
the value of SEN.
Roger, all the best for the future continuation of a great newsletter!
Jack Reid.
Yankee Lurker
==============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
GENTLEMEN;
I'M A 76 YEAR OLD YANKEE,WHO LOVES FREE FLIGHT SCALE(RUBBER AND
POWER)MODELS,READS SCAT EVERYTIME IT COME ON THE SCREEN,AND I MUST SAY WHAT EVE
R YOU DO
DON'T CHANGE A DAM THING.YOUR DOING JUST FINE.....DAN
F1A parts for sale.
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Only several parts for F1A models:
- Complete "Extra Long" and "Long" longerons (5 gen.) with pins;
- Complete "Long", "Extra Long" and "Short" D-boxes;
- Towing hook with plate;
- Wing Wiggler 2-pos.
For models with electronic timer: - Bunt mechanism for e-model;
-Servo holder with wheels;
-accumulators 120 mAh with connector.
VERY reasonable prices, but not for free or "all for $1"!
Thanks,
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
DLG Vs DL F1B
=============
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Bill G said:
I would think that F1B a most unlikely candidate for a truly effective
discus launch. With the high drag and low weight to area that distinguishes
F1B the rate of deceleration after launch will be pretty quick. I can not
see them picking up an additional 25 meters. Perhaps 8 meters?? In any case
It will be great fun to see!
[Bill a good RC HLG can get over 50 meters - !!]
Yeah, they sure do get high! You might remember I twisted Mark Drela's arm
to contribute his thoughts to SEN on DLG technique and free flight.
The discus HLGs are designed for high velocity slingin' Whipping around a
Wake would be about like trying to blast a feather pillow out of a 16 inch
naval Rifle. Whatever, neither projectile or model is going to get very far.
How do you get an F1B to fill the needed criteria? The height gained from
the release velocity is governed by the size/area, drag and weight. What one
wants is the smallest profile, the longest span, the lowest total drag, and
the greatest weight that can be whipped around at maximum r.p.m.
Plus they are helped by having a certain configuration. Low silhouette, low
dihedral, smooth surfaces, and a large vertical fin for the launch. And have
you seen how the tail boom bends?!
The wing airfoil of a DLG is not far from a 6% symmetrical section. The
drag coefficient are
down around .006, .007 or so....anyway it is damn clean and super speedy.
It will employ a flap to achieve a bit more in the glide. Do you have any
idea of what the drag coefficient is of, say an Adrukov section at zero lift
angle? A rough guess would be about 7 times that value. A wing with a Cd of
.04 would be called a "Drag Brake".
So we put a flap on the Adrukov to straighten it out a bit ... like putting
a band aid over the neck gap after being guillotined. A flap will help, but
that would be relative and wouldn't effect a complete cure. What is needed
is a truly variable airfoil that would change one of Dr. Drela's fantastic
'foils into a "clutching hand" type of duration airfoil. I don't know how it
can be done...and then there is the weight issue....and that big prop
dragging along behind ...And, and, well .... lots of things!!
As I mentioned, I'm looking forward to the coming exciting experiments. And
I won't mind a bit about being proven wrong on this one!
SkySpinner
Thanks
======
To the Gannon's and other inernationl sportsmen who have me donations
in support of SEN at the recent MaxMen Contest.
............................
Roger Morrell
