SEN 662 - 7 Jan 2002

SCAT Electronic News 7 January 2002 issue 662

Table of Contents
MaxMen International
f1j drawings - Wilkensen
US Importer of Cyclon .049's? - Helmick
AMA Nats booted from Muncie? - Clemens
W-Hobby - Farkas
Aux. power for spacecraft - The Alien
Get Geared - Johannes
Am Cup Dates - Wood
Isaacson Winter Classic - Markos
Everything that flys - Brokenspar
SEN Mail Server
Starter box - Ramrod250


PLACE: Bissonette Mirage Field - Lost Hills, Ca.
DATE: Feb. 15, 16, 17 & 18
JURY: Roberts, White, Waterman & Norton
SCHEDULE: F1G, H & J Feb. 15
5 Rds. - 45 mins each - starting at 12:00pm

F1A, B & C Feb. 16 & 17
7 Rds each day - 60 mins each - starting at 8:00am
1st Rd each day: A - 210 s; B - 210 s; C - 240 s

Reserve day Feb. 18
Current Sporting Codes apply, including random processing
F1C fuel will be furnished,
only castor oil fuel will be allowed

CONTACTS: George Batiuk, Contest Director;
1759 Southwood, SLO, Ca.93401, USA -
ph 805-546-8231 -
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Bob White, Manager;

** Entries are considered late if received by CD after

** Each competitor must submit a separate Entry Form
==== ====

** Foreign entries must send entry form, either
electronically or by post, but may pay on the field
upon arrival

** All non-AMA members must pay $28.00 Affiliation Fee
** All U.S. fliers must show current field use card

Lost Hills Motel 6 - ph 661-797-2346
Lost Hills Days Inn - ph 661-797-2371


PLACE: Wasco Country Club
DATE: Feb. 16, 2002
PROGRAM: Dinner and presentation of Americas Cup awards for
the year 2001
COST: $20.00 per person; $10.00 for persons under 17


NAME: ______________________________

ADDRESS: ______________________________

CITY ST ZIP ______________________________

COUNTRY ______________________________

FAI LIC # ______________________________


F1A 20.00 ___________
F1B 20.00 ___________
F1C 20.00 ___________
F1G 10.00 ___________
F1H 10.00 ___________
F1J 10.00 ___________
BANQUET 20.00 ea ___________
BANQ < 17 10.00 ea ___________
AFFIL. FEE 28.00 ___________
TOTAL ENCLOSED ___________

** No event charge for Junior flyers
** Entries are late if received after 2/10/02
** Late entry fee is double normal

George Batiuk
1759 Southwood Dr.
San Luis Obispo, Ca. 93401 USA


f1j drawings
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

oleg stoev now has plan drawings of his f1j on his web
theese models are top notch.
i have two of them.
if any body has any questions about them perhaps i
could answer them.
delivery time from the time it was shipped was .
first model.
19 days.
second model 10 days.
that is not bad coming from the ukrane.
please pass this along to the rest of the modelers.
thanks don.

US Importer of Cyclon .049's?
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Looking for a US source for Cyclon .049's for a bud.
Is there one? Thanks, Steve

AMA Nats booted from Muncie?
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I'm flier who checks the free flight box on his AMA membership
application, but does not fly FAI events and has little interest in
them. I find the notion of throwing the AMA FF Nats out of Muncie every
other year in favor of an FAI-only meet to be outrageous and

Why should the FF Nats get the boot? More exposure? Nonsense! This an
utterly specious justification for depriving the majority of members the
pleasure of using their national flying site each and every year. Fly at
Palm Bay in mid-summer? Now there's a real bargain!

Would the EAA consider moving its super-successful Oshkosh air
show/convention operation to some other city every other summer in the
name of "more exposure?" I don't think so, yet I'm certain they're as
interested as AMA in getting more exposure. But they do it with
promotion and advertising, not movement.

I sense here that a small minority within AMA with a misguided FAI
agenda that is attempting a back door coup under the guise of consensus
among the AMA membership. Funny thing- no one asked me. I'll bet a
majority of free flighters would answer the same.

And who are these "others who feel AMA has lost a lot of exposure as a
result of moving the Nationals to the Muncie site" and whose opinion
seems to carry some weight? Don't attendance figures for the Muncie Nats
show a decent- and growing- representation from all over the U.S.? Who
would we be impressing at Palm Bay?

With no disrespect for those who fly FAI events, they are a minority not
only within the free flight community but also within the AMA as a
whole. Why then should they get emphasis enough to eject non- FAI free
flight (and other categories as well) from being held every year as part
of the Muncie Nats? I can't believe that such a move would somehow cause
a grand influx of new FAI fliers.

Why not arrange for this proposed FAI extravaganza to be held a week
before the Nats? Why must it displace the traditional Nats? Have we paid
our dues and made contributions to the AMA only to be denied use the
national site every other year? Are the inmates taking over the asylum?

Bob Clemens
Rochester, NY
AMA 29634

[Explanatory Note:

Bob, I think that you mis-understand the motivation. I have
nothing to do with this proposal, neither does SCAT , nor do any
FAI flyers that I have discussed this with up to this point.

My understanding that the AMA thinks that maybe it would be
better to rotate all the Nationals [FF,CL and R/C]
events to sites outside Muncie on
alternate years. The feeling is that while the Muncie site is
great and it promotes modelling in that area it does not
promote elsewhere in the country. I assume that there is a
hard core of Nats people who would try and go no matter where
the event was held within reason. At the other end of the spectrum
there are people who would only attend if it was near by. Some
of that category would be new people that the AMA would like to attract.
This is something that has been lost since the Nats has been held
exclusiviely at Muncie.

With respect to that plan, some free flighters expressed concern that
if the Nats was rotated, alternate years away from Muncie the
Free flighters would get the short end of the stick because the
away sight might be good for an R/C event, not good for
Free Flight. This concern came from NFFS members in general
not the FAI FF community. So the suggestion in Bob Hanford's
e-mail that the event be held at Lost Hills and Palm Bay was a way
of assuring the FF community that the away site would be a real FF site.
There is obviously a concern that you raise about how good Palm Bay is
in the summer and the same concern exists about Lost Hills too.
There are possibly other sites that might be good for Free Flight
where the weather would be better in the summer. I assume
again the Lost Hills and Palm Bay were suggested because
they are excellent Free Flight sites and give a broad
nationwide spred.

I do not know where the idea to have the additional, international
FAI event at Muncie on the off- years came from. It was certainly
not proposed by what I would call the hard core FAI flyers.
I assume that this was considered to be an additional
benefit to that obtained by missionary work gained by
rotating the Nationals.

As a side comment I can say that I think that holding
a FAI FF event in the summer with the hope of attracting foreign
flyers probably has practical disadvantages. The way to
attract visitors is to have a World Cup Event. Each country
can have 2 World Cup events. The USA has the MaxMen in
February and the Sierra Cup in October, these are well
established and popular events. For the European flyer there
are many events in Europe during the Summer so
a US events, in particular that is not
a World Cup event would not get good participation. the
slightly off season timing of these existing contests suits the
foreign visitor. ]

Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Dear Roger,

I wish you and your family a very Happy New Year.

Regarding some of the comments made by modellers about the W-Hobby
product the Junior, I would like to voice some of my thoughts.
Many modellers around the world (including Vidas) think that the
Czechmate was designed by Peter Allnutt. Well, the truth is that it was
Ladislav Horak who designed it about twenty five years-ago. He showed
us the construction and the warps. The original drawing was made by
Tony Matthews and the Toronto Free Flight Group published it twelve
years-ago. The airfoil is a slightly modified Benedek 8356-b/2. (For
the modification Ladia used the outside curb of his shoe in Prague) I
been building models with the original Benedek section since 1987. (the
8356 series were designed by Benedek Gyorgy in 1944) My first model
was flown on the Max Men with eleven Maxes, missing only the first round
and right of the building board. As per uncle Gyorgy, the flat
under-camber provided greater stability. He used this airfoil in his
BM-8 Wakefield model and on the 1954 Hungarian Nationals finished first
with 898 seconds. The very same model made 900 seconds two times during
the 1956 team trials. For the good stability he stated that the size of
the stabilizer was less that 20% of the wing area. (Wing area 15.8 and the stab area was 3.1 square dm.) After this little
history I would like to address the issue of W-Hobby. My dealing with
the company was always positive. Vidas is very helpful and willing to go
the extra miles to satisfy the buyers. Anybody with a complaint should
send an E-mail to him and he will deal with it professionally. Regarding
junior builders, What is wrong building from scratch. Use the Czechmate
construction and airfoil and use Carbon for the spar only. It will be a
winner, guarantied. Non of us bought finished models when we were young
and just started. Maybe it is time to go back to basics for the juniors
and they will appreciate their success more, instead of the immediate
gratification of a purchased model. We will become fathers not by our
wallets but by our teachings.

Best regards,
Leslie Farkas - Canada


We recieved an e-mail from Aviation Time - but it
was in a Cryllic font, however we went to thier web site
at and found the
information below. While not exactly FAI FF we would
recommend that Scale enthousiast and those interested
in East European avaiation look at this site.

The Magazine about aircraft of various times and countries in detail
and precisely. Make acquaintce with the first Ukrainian aviation
popular scientific magazine "Aviation and Time". It has been published
since 1992, its circulation is 10000 copies. Besides Ukraine and Russia,
the magazine is distributed in almost all states of CIS, East Europe, USA
and some other countries including Austria, Great Britain, Germany,
Netherlands. The volume of one issue is 48 pages of format A4, plus
supplementary sheet with the drawings.

The basis of each issue is the large article (it takes up to 20 pages)
telling in details about the biography of some aircraft, its constructions
and technical characteristics. For example: I-180, Pe-3, Tu-95, Mi-24,
Ka-25, Il-28, Be-12, An-22, Yak-25, Yak-27. An article is prepared
using the information obtained from firms-developers and persons taken part
in the aircraft tests and operation. It is supplied with great number
of photos (as a rule, about 50 pieces), many of which are published for
the first time, accurate drawings in scale 1:72 or 1:100 and historically
authentic colouring of certain machines.

The magazine gives a great consideration to the aircraft application in
local conflicts, including conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan.
The last theme takes special place. So, the cycle of the
articles "The Hot Sky of Afghanistan" has been published since 1994. These
articles describe military application of Su-17, Su-25, Mi-8, Mi-24,
MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-24 at that war. The editors of the magazine receive
a lot of positive respouses from immediate participants of those
events. Some of them gave their memoirs for publication.

The readers of "Aviation and Time" can find in the magazine the unique
information about the participation of aircraft in the Second
World War. For example, on the basis of unknown before archives materials
there were prepared articles dedicated to the beginning of air war on
Soviet - German front, to the USA strategic Air Forces operations from
Ukrainian air bases, to the attempts of the USSR to force Finland to
drop out of the war by means of massed bombardments of its cities. Among
other themes are analytical materials devoted to the most modern
discoveries, including An-70 and F-22, experimental aircraft, aircraft
of the First World War, aircraft of 20-30th, review of the most
significant events in air life of different countries, chronicle of
aircatastrophes, advices for model aircraft constructors etc.
The editorial staff considers treatment of the activity of the
enterprises of space complex of Ukraine to be one of the most important
directions of its work. For this purpose the magazine cooperates
fruitfully practically with all appropriate official instances and
enterprises of the country. Publishing in each number materials on
these subjects, we try to inform the readers about events in the branch,
achievements of its enterprises. This work in combination with
advertising activity promotes better progress of services and goods of
Ukrainian firms in the internal and international markets, and
also it helps to form positive public opinion. Our prices for
advertising services are 2-5 times less, than in other editions.
Free information support is also provided. We are open
to further similar cooperation.

Aux. power for spacecraft
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I realize this is not FAI related, but perhaps someone can help. I =
need a piston/liner or piston for a Rossi 65 engine. Perhaps someone out =
there might have one.

Get Geared
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

For Sale.

Verbitsky geared engine F1C model. Delivered at the MaxMen last year.

Trimmed for full engine run but never allowed to glide. Never crashed.

$2,000. Will deliver at MaxMen.

Bob Johannes 636 441- 3945 or This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Am Cup Dates
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Hi Roger,
When do you think you will put the Americas Cup Schedule for
2002 on your website or in the newsletter?
I plan to go to as many contests as I can again this year.
So, I would like to start watching the airline prices
for bargens to the Americas Cup Contests.
your friend,
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.


We did publish a preliminary schedule a little while
back. But SCAT is dependant of getting the dates from the
event organizers. ... So America's Cup CDs please get
your dates into to Tom Coussens. You best customer
is getting his plans together.]

Rotating NATs Survey
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Following is my responce to the Bob Handford survey. Has you will see, it has
an AmCup perspective. I've maintained the FAI FF AmCuo records for the past 11
years ans so have a good understanding of the participation levels.
Although this survey is being requested of both large and small FAI event conte
your answers should pertain to the large events only, since they would
presumably be the only events held at a pure international FAI contest.

1. Were you one of the NATS/FAI competitors involved in the conversations
with the Executive Council about this proposal?
No, my son and I attended the 2001 NATs (first time for us) but were not envol
ved with these conversations.

2. Were you aware that the Executive Council was considering this proposal?

3. Do you think that the Muncie flying site is adequate for hosting an
international? Competition?

>From my international experience and observations of recent FAI FF internation
al contests: No for World Championships and Continental Champs. Yes other World
Cup contests.

4. Do you think that such a contest would create more activity and interest
in FAI? Events?

No, there is already an increase on FAI activity in both the Open and Mini eve
nts. Increasing attendance for FAI FF at the NATs is a good indicator. It's unc
lear to me how by NOT having a yearly event will improve FF participation in ge

5. Do you think that the Muncie flying site would attract international

No, for FAI FF, World Cup points and good fields mostly motivates the FAI FF co
mpetitors. Muncie is an excellent field by most European standards. However, p
er the FAI world Cup rules, every country gets only two World Cup sanctions. Th
e USA sanctions are firmly rooted in the MaxMen contest at Lost Hills in Februa
ry, CA and the Sierra Cup near Sacramento, CA in October. Therefore I think the
re would be very little interest by the European FAI FF communities. The Europ
eans also have the European Champs on the off year of the World Champs-i.e. the
y have a "big" contest every year. I suggest the FAI FF World Cup Schedule be r
eviewed, mid-summer is when most of the European contests, including the Euro
pean Champs, are scheduled. The proposed FAI only NATs would be at the same tim
e as the European Champs. Could we schedule the Muncie calendar around the Eur
opean schedule?

6. Would you attend the FAI contest at Muncie, in the off years of the World
Most likely yes, but the contest that my son and I attend are influenced by man
y factors. For example, my son competed for a Jr FAI FF team spot in 2001 and s
o we made as many AmCup contest as possible, the NATs was one of them.

7. In which of the FAI events would you participate?
F1A and F1H

8. Do you favor returning to a rotating site location for the AMA Free Flight N
No, I don't see the point of it. The FF NATs is considered a "biggy" from th
e AmCup perspective. That is it consistently draws more than 18 flyers per eve
nt. 18 flyers or more give the contest the maximum 5 bonus points for each of t
he first five places. To win the AmCup, one usually needs to win at least one "
biggy". This is one reason why the FAI FF is increasing at the NATs. From an A
mCup perspective, much consideration is given to maintain an East, Central, Wes
t balance-a rotating NATs would make this more difficult.

9. Do you think that the rotating site would increase participation?
No, FAI FF participation is more influenced by the Team Selection process and A
mCup program than any single contest.

10. Do you think that Palm Bay is a suitable location for a mid-summer NATS,
so that Juniors, Seniors, and those with careers in education
would not be excluded?

Yes the site is adequate but the weather (heat / humidity) would be a barrier f
or many. Also, who would run this contest? Would AMA send people to administer
the contest? Florida has the people but would they want to? Also, Florida in mi
d-summer-I know they fly in summer but they don't hold their big meet in the su
mmer. The King Orange isn't, in Dec for nothing.
Also, who's excluding Juniors, Seniors, and those with careers in education and
what does this have to do with the issue?

11. Do you think that Lost Hills is a suitable location for a mid-summer NATS,
so that
Juniors, Seniors, and those with careers in education would not be excluded?
Ditto, Lost Hills already host 5 AmCup FAI FF contests and several other qualit
y FF contest. Again, most of the contests at Lost Hills are not held in the mi
ddle of the summer due to the heat. Bob Temchek runs a contest in mid July but
restricts the hours from the hottest part of the day-not conducive to a NAT's
level competition.

12. If the Free Flight NATS remained each year in Muncie, and the proposed FAI
was held separately on the week immediately before or after the NATS, would yo
attend the FAI meet, the NATS, both, or neither?
Most likely I would attend only the FAI event.


The stated reason for a rotating FAI FF Champs is to improve participation and
to "return prestige" to the NATs. From my FAI FF and AmCup perspective, the FAI
FF NATs is currently on the upswing on both of these accounts. I can see no re
ason that going to a rotating NATs would improve this at a greater rate, In fac
t the chances are greater that the rotating NATs would be detrimental to FAI FF

Without the FAI FF World Cup sanction, European (non-USA, Canadian) will have l
ittle interest in attending a mid-summer FAI FF contest at Muncie.

No on rotating FF NATs. OK with separate but adjacent FAI FF NATs at Muncie.

Thanks for asking--- Jim Parker AMA 89015

Isaacson Winter Classic
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

It's about time to make travel plans for the MaxMen and Isaacson Feb
contests. I have seen the dates for the MaxMen, but can't remember seeing
the Isaacson. If the dates follow last year's form, the Isaacson should be
on the weekend preceeding the MaxMen. However, the AMA calendar doesn't
list any FF in California that weekend.
Please help.
Chuck Markos


The Isaacson Winter classic is the weekend
before the MaxMen .. will include F1E
this year.
F1A,B and C are on the Saturday]

Everything that flys
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

So, here's this ladybug....
This is early January in Michigan ! ( north central USA, Haviar )

She has decided to live in the Kitchen.
The kitchen has a varety of white surfaces.
She can be seen traversing the long edge of the
counter from the sink to the Sub Zero
Takes half a day..
She's on the handle of the blue coffee pot this morning.
Or, hanging out at the sink for a drink of water...
Pick her up on a playing card to get her out of the way...

In the middle of the floor, blending in with the carpet pattern.
"Watch it, she's right there by the stool."

Then we find her ( missing for eight days )
in the bathroom, on the rim of the sink
along side a drop of water.
"Wh'ere you been.... ?"
( We're starting to talk to her..)

This prooves that she can still fly.
Even after I squashed her while gathering up the junk mail,
causing something to stick out from her right behind.
( prooved to be the wing )

My good wife reports that this morning,
waiting for the coffee water to boil,
she ( the ladybug ) walked the edge of pantry counter
and stopped at the wall, paused a minute, and fell to the carpet.
Immediately, a spider jumped out to the attack..
" I grabbed a pencil and defended her "

I have looked at her in my 10x magnifier
( still on my my head, coming up from the basement )
She's not beautilful,. hardly a lady,
If she were big enough, she'd eat you !

I'm getting ready to go to Arizona. Southwest Regionals.
Late in the season, early in the next.

Our ladybug keeps my spirit


SEN Mail Server

Recently a third party detected a potential SPAM issue with the mail server used
by SEN. This was something that we had overlooked during and
installation/upgrade. It meant that it was possible for someone outside to use
our mail server for sending SPAM [unsolicited commercial e-mail]. The third
party notified a number of ISPs of this situation [but not us] so that some
subscriber's ISP would no longer accept SEN. We have fixed the problem and
notified the third party, who should in turn notify the same ISPs. This may
account for the reason why some small number of subscribers have not received
the last few issues of SEN. Hopefully this situation should now be OK.

Starter box
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Was wondering if anyone out there had one of the old-style fold-up aluminum
starter boxes for Power models (type where the ends fold down to make "legs"
and the starter is mounted on a pylon in the center). I know they haven't
been made in some time, but if anyone has one they're not using, let me know.
I could build one from wood, but prefer aluminum. I just need the shell--I
have the other components.

Jim Haught

Roger Morrell