SEN 666 - 15 Jan 2002
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SCAT Electronic News 15 January 2002 issue 666
Table of Contents
High on Muncie but revamp TMOY - Jahnke
Letter of rebuttal - Gutai - The Alien
FAI Procedures and F1C
gear and costs
Chris Edge...F1C performance - Brokenspar
F1B - 30 gram rule - Cox
Re: Altitude Measurement - Andresen
F1C COST BOUTILLIER - McBurnette
sifleets letter - Wilkinson
Looking for yuri titov - Shickman
Accommodation at Omarama March 2002 - Murphy
Mr. King/glide testing/launch - Rocket Ron
F1C T-Shirt ? - Perkins and Cowley
High on Muncie but revamp TMOY
I would like to comment on two items in issue 665.
The first is to concur with Tom Ioeger, the Muncie site is a good three
minute field in most directions, if the flight line is properly locate.
The second is to reveal some little known or forgotten information about the
Ten Models of the Year award. Once a model is nominated it stays on the
list until it is withdrawn or wins. There are models that have been
"bridesmaids" for many years just waiting for a year with no nominations.
Unless you get some solid nominations in, models that have been passed over
by numerous committees, good models to be sure but not exemplary, will win.
This diminishes the prestige of the award and discourages the nomination of
truly great models.
1. I recommend to the TMOY committee that they maintain a high standard,
even if that means less than ten awards.
2. I recommend that models on the list for more than three cycles be
3. I recommend that the committee nominate models, give them an award if
they are deamed excellent, then get the documentation for the sympo. Don't
wait for a shy modeler.
4. I recommend that automatic renual be dropped in favor of a two - three
4. I recommend the modeling community heed Mike Roberts' request ASAP, lest
we tarnish this distinguished award.
Ross Jahnke, Editor sympo 2001
Letter of rebuttal
Let me begin by saying that I am not strongly for or against the geared
F1C engines. However, I do resent it when someone takes it upon himself
to distort the truth or speak for me without my knowledge.
Mr. Sifleet's letter does just that.
I do not understand where he obtained much of his information. As nearly
as I can tell, there is no way the United States will lose the number of
fliers he mentions because of the development of geared models. In fact
I am not aware of anyone planning on quitting for that reason. (And he
will not be lost--he has purchased at least one folding-wing model from
Leonid Fuzeyev. He forgot to mention the cost or the availability for
one of those models.)
His item #1, excess performance, is greatly overstated. There is some
altitude gain with a geared engine, but not to the extent he mentions;
in fact, this gain is shown only by a few geared models.
At the recent World Champs, I noted quite a few conventional models that
were outclimbing some of the geared models. Add to that the problem
that the large props on the geared models do not always fold
correctly--which can seriously affect the glide and drop the model's
performance to below that of a standard model.
His item #2, availability: Yes, it is true you cannot make these units
on a Unimat lathe, and must depend on someone else to do it; but the
same is true for a standard engine. In time--there are still some
manufacturing problems--there will be enough geared units to go around.
As shown by the results of the World Champs, it was anyone's ballgame.
There was a good mix of geared models, standard models, and the one
folder. I do not feel that I am at a disadvantage when I fly a
conventional model against the geared models.
His item #3, cost, gives ridiculous cost comparisions. The cost of an
F1C model is much greater than $500-$600 USD; and whatever the cost, we
need to talk about scratch-built or bought models. Verbitsky charges
about $2,200 for a trimmed, ready to fly geared model. He also charges
about $1,700 for a trimmed, ready to fly standard model--$500
The GK Hummer (Galbreath-Keck-Nelson geared engine) costs $795 plus two
prop blades (about $65) for a total of $860. This includes a pan and
mounting ring; a brake; and the prop hub.
A standard Nelson engine will soon cost $300. With it, you need a pan
and mounting ring at $125; a prop at $75; and a brake at $50, for a
total of $550. From this it is apparent that the difference in cost of
the geared engine is only about $310--not the $750 Mr. Sifleet suggests.
This is less than the $350 electronic timers that he uses.
By way of comparison, a top of the line electronic F1A bunter is $2000,
and an Andriukov F1B is $1390.
His item #4, Safety: Yes, I have seen rudders come off, but on
direct-drive models as well as geared models. As for prop failures, I
have seen direct-drive props throw a blade, which destroys a model, but
so far I have not seen or heard of a geared model losing a blade.
There was no mention made about safety considerations with the
folding-wing model; I wonder how many crashes and/or near-misses
Mr.Fuzeyev had during the development of his model.
Sir, I urge you to ignore Mr. Sifleet's comments, and treat them for
what they are: half-truths and misinformation. They reflect only his
views--not those of the majority of US F1C fliers.
I and the dozen or so flyers I have talked with since Mr. Sifleet's
letter was published do not feel that any type of rule change--emergency
or otherwise--is necessary at this time.
US FF Team, F1C, 1985-87-97
FAI Procedures and F1C
What suprises me about the Original letter to the FAI and it's response,
is that Mr Pimenoff set something in course. The correct way for matters to
be raised with the FAI is a letter from a National Aero Club.
Any new feature can require significant development. I first
saw Verbitsky's geared model in New Zealand in '98. One
of the best F1C sportsmen ever has spent years working on it.
I think that the GK Hummer employs great technology, a great design
and is very well made. It has made great progress in getting there
but there is still probably some work to be done. That work
I find it somewhat paradoxial that there was a comment about
the difficulty or cost in obtaining a geared motor - but nothing about
the folding wing airplane. Clear this is also a revolutionary
technology with a significant development cost and time.
We have clearly seen that neither of the above features guarantees
success but what they do is demonstrate the excitement and diversity
that is leading edge Free Flight.
When we decide what we want to fly, we need make the decision what
features we want to have in our airplane, how to balance simplicity
and reliability against complexity and possible problems. That
is Free Flight too.
gear and costs
Well, it is so interesting to read this stuff. As to Boultiere comments on
He said the Nelson is $245.00 and a prop is $30.00 for a total of $275.00
and that was the comparison to the gear Nelson. Seems like he forgot a few
items that are included ib the gear package, like a pan, brake, fuel system
and a clamp-ring for the fuselage to hold the mount.
A mount from EV is about $65.00 then add $25.00 for a brake, then another
$20.00 or so for the fuel system. How about a hub to hold those $30.00 prop
blades? Another $30.00 to $40.00!!
So now we have $245.00+ 30+ 65+ 25+ 20+ 30/40( call it 35)=$420.00. Next,
how much does it cost you to find and order all these components from X
amount of suppliers. If the props are too expensive make your own! Save lots
Next, you do not need to buy a balancing hub. Make one or use the gear hub
to balance the props. Also, you can make the prop mounting tool.
So what we end up with is $790.00 + $50.00 EV props for a total of $840.00
minus $420.00= $420.00. So they are both wrong!! But Dougs total is way
closer than Boultiere.
Also, heard through the grapevine that Kalmykov has a new F1C engine
available at $450.00. Interesting andsomething to take note of is that Doug
and Nelson have kept the price of their engine at nearly the same price for
more than 10 years!! What else has not had some form of inflation????
Now, as to the cost of models. Just a quick story! Henry Spence once told me
that he thought the composite wings were the best thing to happen to F1C in
decades. They cost more, but practically last forever. Henry said he had
crashed one model 5 times which with aluminum wings would have cost him 5 x
$325.00= $1625.00. He is still using that same set of crashed composite
wings which cost $375.00 or there abouts!! He saved over $1300.00!!! The
point is the cost of new models is high, but they last practically a
lifetime of flying!! With the exception of a new tailboom and some covering
material you can fly these models forever!!
When considering the cost, one must consider your BANG FOR YOUR BUCK!!
Think about what sporting equipment lasts as long as the new composite
models and the enjoyment you receive then make your choice!!
Also, you can always make your own wings, stabs, tailbooms, props,
frontends, ect., ect.,ect., and be able to buy all the gear stuff you want!!
In closing, the gear WON THE WORLD CHAMPS BY, WHAT 13 SECONDS OR SOMETHING
LIKE THAT!! GEE, I KNOW THAT WAS THE REASON HE WON!! IT HAD TO BE THE GEAR!!
IT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A MODEL ADJUSTED IN GLIDE A LITTLE BETTER OR A
CLEANER BUNT OR HEAVEN FORBID BETTER AIR!!!
Do you all understand how ridiculous it sounds to twiz out over 10 or 15
seconds!! As I understand it, the World Champion lost the flyoff to Peter
Watson the next week at the Sierra Cup by more than 30 seconds in the same
air!! Guess we should introduce proposals to CIAM to ban regular engines for
Think about what you say before you print it!! These arguments do the event
a disservice and help no one!!
Fly gears, don't fly gears, your choice! But at least fly!! We fly in
thermals about 99% OF THE TIME and I do not think the thermal knows if it is
a gear or not!!
Chris Edge...F1C performance
I am the proud owner of a Leica Laser Rangefinder.
Have never had a chance to use it. Didn't make the WCh.
However, I have heard that the Leica does not read Icarex ( ! ).
Another brand does not have this problem.
Bruce Kimbal has reported readings, as I remember.
Nevertheless, if you're coming to the Max Men, maybe you
could reserve a dance for me.. Give me a few readings
on my model ( no Icarex ), and then satisfy your curiosity
on the the experts at your leasure..
F1B - 30 gram rule
Thanks to Larry Norvall for his recent comments in SEN on the 30 gram rule
now applying to F1B. As someone who is wanting to get into F1B more
seriously, I and I suspect many others would welcome more information
through SEN on peoples experiences and responses to this new rule which will
apply for the next few years. It would also be fun to read objective
discussion on a motive power other than geared F1C's - perhaps there has
been enough hot air on this topic for every F1C model in the world to max
for the next few lifetimes at least, irrespective of their motive power!
A happy and max packed New Year to all
Re: Altitude Measurement
Much of the recent F1C cost discussion reminds me of the Freewheel, Feather,
Folder controversy for Wakefield some 50 yr ago when FW's won the event 5yrs
in a row. Sounds pretty silly now as the gear thing will in a few years as
they either become the gold standard in many events or disappear.
Chris Edge makes a good point re altitude measurement. One valid test is
still worth 1000 opinions (except for mine).
A long time ago I advocated early morning/late evening testing where quick
DT is used and altitude is proportional to DT time. Is most useful to sort
out props on a given airplane.
A very underutilized technology is a tripod mounted camcorder, followed by
frame by frame playback. Many new digital still cameras will also take
short video for computer playback.
Have done a little playing with this and by counting frames for a fuselage
to advance it length it's possible to get a good handle on velocity. Can
also be used for glide and indoor models.
RC glider guys sometimes use a Casio altimeter watch in the fuselage. F1C
climb mode results in almost 200' of velocity head, so some care must be
used with this approach.
Know some others have even more sophisticated approach.
In any event, as Mr Edge points out, facts are more useful than opinions.
See you at the SW Regionals,
F1C COST BOUTILLIER
Just to correct your (dis) information My props are NOT $80 usd The
world champs price was $50 usd Now they are $65 usd Not $80 usd
Next time you quote my prices try checking with me in order to get the
right.....um..... information .. Ron McBurnett
i have known bob sifleet for many a year.
used to fly with him at contests in the 60 and 70.
all i can say about this if bob don't to fly geared
engines than don't fly them.
but don't make it where i can't geared engines because
they were banned.
yes they are expensive.
but any real fai power flyer is going to come up with
the greenbacks to get theese what ecer it might cost.
ether get geared or don't get geared.
but don't ban them.
when is sombody going to put gears on a cyclon 061 in
i want the first one.
Looking for yuri titov
my name is ittai and I am desperately looking for the e-mail of Yuri titov
can you please help me????
Accommodation at Omarama March 2002
To any readers intending to come to the Omarama twin World Cup series 18-24
March, who have not yet sorted their accommodation, I am reliably informed
that accommodation is rapidly filling due to a large rowing regatta at Lake
Ruataniwha, 20km north of Omarama. This means that accommodation at Omarama
and Twizel is likely to be under pressure during the latter part of the
Alternative accommodation is available at Glenburn Park, Otematata
village, and Kurow, 10,20 and 30 mins respectively from Omarama. As of 14
Jan, I will have details on accommodation options at these locations. if you
need this information, contact me by e-mail.
In all other respects, progress for the series is continuing according
Mr. King/glide testing/launch
Here are a few obserrvations obtained during some glide testing
performed on a 24" wing span canard . I was trying to determine the
degree of downwash induced by the forward plane in relation to the
forward plane aspect ratio. I was not concerned with performance so
much as obtaining vusial results using thread streemers, flash camera,
flat black drop cloth, and a CONSISTANT launch device. It was this
consistant launch device that stumped me. If you will search threw the
1989(i think)NFFS symposiem you will find a paper on glide testing wake
models by Georg Xinagas(sorry to bucher your name). The area
resposable for the most error was the launch device. This was resolved
by using a steel ball and a raked sand aera around his lauch
platform(see artical for more info). I decided to elimanate the launch
rubber and go straigh to the steel ball attached to a string which is
allowed to fall intill a perfict launch is abtained. Look here to see
some pictures and other imbarising stuff .
Now after all of this I have planed to get a larg sheet of butcher paper
and paceing off about 20 feet and then marking each hole in the paper
the model makes.
Of course this is fine for smaller models, hard to launch a Nordic
across the living room without the little lady coming unglued. In the
interest of simplicity would half size models work without Re truama?
I hear the Wright Bro.made some really good 3"airfoil sections :) and
their research set avaition back a few years.
"F1-A at the Nordic Cafe"
F1C T-Shirt ?
This message came from Martyn Cowley, please make all responses to him.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cowley, Martyn"
To: "Kerger Terry" ; "Perkins Daryl"
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: F1C T-Shirt ?
Terry / Daryl,
¥ Do you think a Navy Blue (or some other color such as Red) version of the
Max Men T-Shirt would be popular with F1C flyers, so as not to show fuel
stains so easily as the white ones ? This would be printed with a white
border to the lettering so that the blue / red letters will still read OK.
Please forward to any other power flyers you know to be sartorially inclined
[Actually I think the key question is
does it have gears or not ?]