SEN 682 - 8 Mar 2002
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SCAT Electronic News 8 March 2002 issue 682
Table of Contnets
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BEAR CUP, PORI, March 2. -02, World Cup event
multple motors - Joyner
Segrave and '95 - Chaussebourg
That section again! - Segrave
Dick Lyons funeral - Curth
Fw: A. N. Other Andres Lepp sighting - Hines
F1E and GPS - Scott
wow, new word ! - Brokenspar
From left field - Pudney
CIAM Meeting Policy - Bogie
A Request - Goodnow
Vol Libre - Segrave
BEAR CUP, PORI, March 2. -02, World Cup event
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Hi Roger,
I received a message from Lee Hines. He asked some more information of
Bear Cup. Here You have same.
Test flying conditions on Friday were nice: Calm, sunny, a few + degrees
C. Up to 10 centimetres of snow on the lake ice surface.
Saturday dawned misty. The start of the contest was half on hour late
and with 3 minutes maxes in all classes. And still some highflying
models had problems to be seen. One power model disappeared before 20
seconds and had re flight. At least one wakefield disappeared in skies.
At the end of the first round visibility got good. Wind was some 3 ... 4
m/s, about 0 degree C. Partly sunny in the afternoon.
Fly-off was flown in twilight and there were some problems to see all
the models. In the North we have long twilight and it's important to
have the model with right colours on. In grey skies, when snowing, in
mist and just before landing on glistening white snow dark colours (dark
red, brown, blue, black) are useful. Against the forest or distant
hills, white is needed. Fluorescent colours are good, but perhaps not
enough alone. Colourless doped Salzer is too bad when snowing!
In motor classes only two wakefields made 5 minutes maxes (in lift?). 5
gliders made 5 minutes max and flew so far that they had to continue in
Sunday morning in cold wind. Jari Valo, last year's nr. 3 in W-Cup, beat
the Champion Per Findahl. After the well known experts Laura Leino of
Finland was 5. Last year she was 7. at CL-combat European Champs. Quite
a lady!
In the northern contests on ice 5 minutes first round looks too bad.
Most people in Pori thought it is too difficult especially for a
wakefield with an ice cold 30 g motor, and the feeling of the contest
falls when the first flight is decisive.
multple motors
==============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I have been reading with considerable interest Michael Segrave's discussions
of his twin coupe. Going through some old photos from the 1993 world Champs
I came across a shot I took of a Russian or Ukrainian front end that was on
one of the many sale tables. It was a Wakefield-sized unit, though a bit on
the large size (probably 35 to 40 mm diameter). Instead of the usual single
hook for attaching the motor, it had four smaller hooks equally spaced about
10 mm from the center. I assume the idea was to use four 10 g motors (this
was 1993 after all) to drive the prop through some sort of gear system. Does
anyone else remember seeing this front end? Does anyone have any additional
information on it? Although there certainly would be some advantages of
using multiple motors of thinner cross section, the thought of trying to
wind four motors doesn't sound very appealing. Perhaps two motors with
return gears would be worth exploring, at least with a computer simulation.
(Peter, I hope you are reading this.)
Related to Mike's twin, Frank Cummings flew a twin-fuselage Wakefield in the
early 1950s. R.O.G. launches must have been something to watch.
Louis Joyner
Segrave and '95
===============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Dear Roger,
In this last issue, my name is used by Mike Segrave relating the 1995 F1C
Fly-Off, and I cannot let this without making an answer.
At the 1995 World Champs in Hungary, the FAI Jury members were Ian KAYNES,
Free Flight S/C member from UK, Andras REE who was at that moment delegate
of Hungary and myself, Pierre CHAUSSEBOURG, 1st Vice President of CIAM.
At the last fly-off, the Jury had to decide about the position of the
starting line, in order to position it as far as possible from the trees
mentioned by Mike.
Mike is wrong when he says that Andras REE was contest director: it is not
possible to be in the FAI Jury and to be CD together. It is true that I
recorded myself, (as well as Ian and Andras also did) all the times recorded
by all timekeepers, and this for all the five flyers, not only for Randy
ARCHER, because it is the duty of the FAI jury to decide if for one
competitor, one time must be discarded if it is clear that this time is not
good because one timekeeper observed a wrong model or lost the good model
before it disappeared or landed. (See Sporting Code: Fly-Off rules)
Then, the official time is the average of the other times recorded. In fact,
and for each competitor, the differences between the times recorded by the
official timekeepers were not big enough to discard any of them, so, as it
is mentioned in the sporting code the official time for each competitor has
been the average of the times recorded by their timekeepers.
I know that Randy's model is probably the one which made the longest flight,
unfortunately, his model made a long straight downwind branch and
disappeared from the sight of the timekeepers. I remember to have discussed
about this later with Walt GHIO, who was the US team manager, and he told me
that he had better binoculars than the timekeepers and that he had lost
Randy's model quite some time before the timekeepers stopped their
stopwatches...
Considering the words written by Mike Segrave about the way people from non
European countries are considered at World Championships, I should like to
ask him to apologize in this SEN for all he has written in this last SEN
issue N°681.
I cannot accept the words written by Mr SEGRAVE and his words will be
reported to the CIAM Bureau.
Pierre Chaussebourg.
[I recieved other comments about the same article. They expressed
concern that people [in Europe] might feel that Mike Segrave
was expressing a generally held view by people in North America.
In particular that the event had been rigged in some fashion.
They also questioned by judgement in publishing the article.
While I reserve the not to publish material, I
do publish material that I do not personally
agree with as to give an air of impartially.]
That section again!
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I have read Matthews comments as well as Woodhouse's. Note should be made of
the fact that Gard's modification concerned only the top surface and it was
still unstable with a smooth curve from back to front. Matthews also says
that the section top and bottom surfaces were treated separately, but this
inevitably concerns the mean camber when the section was finalised. The
maximum top camber being relatively well forward together with the rather
steep curve at the front make for an unstable situation there. But no-one
has mentioned the steep rise on the bottom surface, which, with no Philips
entry, will in all likelihood when the ship (and of course, the wing) is in
a steep dive (after being disturbed more than a little) in the recovery
sequence lead to a stall on the bottom, creating high drag and a reluctance
for the nose to rise in the usual way. Perhaps this is the REAL reason for
the instability, coupled of course with the flap at the rear,high camber
etc.,etc.,etc. Note also that even with the addition of turbulators at 7 and
23%, the airfoil was STILL unstable! In gentle turbulence, the ship with
this foil will be relatively stable, for the undersurface will not get into
a position where a stall will occur, for the nose will not reach a large
negative angle. Note also should be of the Goettingen 495 which although of
much less camber, exhibits similar unstable characteristics and it has a
shallow top curve with max position well back AND a good Phillips entry,
too!!! Looks like we don't know very much about airfoils, n'est-ce pas?
Dick Lyons funeral
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Former Chicago Aeronut Pres and US FAI team member Dick Lyons has died. A=
lthough he has lived in CA. for years funeral services will be held in Li=
bertyville,IL. at Burnett-Dane on Park Ave. Saturday March 8, 2002. Visit=
ation from Noon until 2PM services.
Otto Curth
Fw: A. N. Other Andres Lepp sighting
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
For SEN:
I noticed with pleasure that Mr. Andres Lepp showed
up once again in the Flyoff listings for the Bear Cup.
His comeback is well underway it appears and welcome.
Lee Hines
F1E and GPS
===========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Dear Roger
When I compared an F1E model of the future, equipped with a fully
functioning GPS guidance system, to a radio controlled slope soarer
(SCAT 681) it was to illustrate how the electronics added to the FF
model would bring it close in nature to an RC model. The differences
between FF and RC, were already appreciated, but thank you for the
primer on this anyway. May I make clear, before commenting further,
that I do not fear electronic devices, that the word 'Magic' does not
make me recoil in horror, and that I respect those who develop the
technology we see in aeromodelling today - not too bad for someone
classified (though not by myself) as a technophobe and Luddite!
Your comparison of current on-board flight adjustment systems used in
F1A/B/C with the harnessing of GPS in F1E models is misleading and
oversimplified. No matter how sophisticated they are, current timers
are still 'set and forget' devices: once they are launched, the flier
has no further control (except perhaps for r/c DT if allowed) and this
is how it should be for free flight models. Current systems are not
capable of determining a model=92s location to an accuracy of a few =
metres
or of measuring altitude to determine whether the model is in lift or
sink. They are not capable of being set to maintain a specific heading
or model height. They are not constantly feed new information while the
model is in flight, nor can they reconfigure the model on the basis of
the new information. These are some of the most basic functions that
could be derived from a GPS. Equating timers to a GP controlled system
is like comparing an abacus to a personal computer.
Here's the test ... How much difference is there between =96
1) A free flight ? model that has its altitude, heading and position
adjusted by a continuous stream of data from a satellite, and
2) A radio controlled model that has its altitude, heading and position
adjusted by a continuous stream of data from a hand held transmitter ?
Bernard Scott.
[Bernard
in case one the model is not adjusted by the stream of data
from the GPS satellite. That data is use as rference input.
Similar, but admittedly not quite as good information could
be obtained from an onboard electronic compass ]
wow, new word !
===============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
sinistrose, sinistral....sinister. Come to think of it.
my pants are sinistal...
And, I am ( watcha call it ? ) right handed !
never let my SCAT subscription expire !
Brokenspar
From left field
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
"left turning
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Chuck:
My props are sinistral, thier sinistrogyrations often producing
sinistrorse results: were it otherwise the outcome might well be sinistrous."
Doesn't sound right to me!
Jan Pudney
Adelaide, South Australia
CIAM Meeting Policy
====================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I am the US F1 delegate to the CIAM meetings. Dan Tracy is the delegate for
the US Team Selection Committee. I have spoken to Dan laying out my policy
on our participation in the F1 Technical Meeting and the Plenary Meeting. In
short, I vote in the F1 meeting according to what Dan has determined from the
survey made by the Team Selection Committee. I also mentioned that I would
advise Dave Brown likewise in the Plenary meeting. Dan may do that if he
wishes. If further discussion leads to a question on a technicality, I would
be the advisor to Dave. In short, Dan's position is political and mine is
technical based on 47 years in aerodynamics with prime aircraft companies as
well as more years involving F1 competition record setting in F1B, NFFS
symposia and SCAT publications and contest directing.
Bill Bogart
A Request
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Anybody out there know where I can get a exhaust for an OPS .60. Have
converted it from a R/C engine to a FF engine. Going to put it on a Super D.
plane. Hopefully it will be reasonabley priced as my wife has out a governor
on my wallet.
Thermals
B. Goodnow
Still lurking at the little finger of the left hand of God
Vol Libre
==========
Does anyone know what has happened to Andre Schandel, the editor of this
magazine? I have sent 2 letters but no reply was forthcoming. The I tried
telephoning him but each of two times I got someone else. Finally, I tried
emailing him two times also but no reply either. I am concerned because I
have had sent a number of articles for publication and don't know if they
will be used. They were on twin tractor of Hamburg (from 1929),a small
tailless CDH,Little Swift;a canard CDH ,Mandarin and an article which many
graphs analysing 38 CDHs. There was to have been an article on butterfly
tails but after many mistakes on all the above, I retrieved all the material
from the perpetrator nd wiil produce this myself, partly because he refused
to agree with my suggested layout. Has anyone received a Vol Libre later
than #l45? Mike S
...................
Roger Morrell
