SEN 764 - 12 Dec 2002
Category: Archive 2002
SCAT Electronic News 12 December 2002 issue 764
Table of Contents
Re: F1A IDEAS - Rocket Ron
Sharing at the SWR - Crowley
X RAY & electronic timers - Sifleet
The Ultimate Gollywock - Deloach
Airfoils - Segrave
Looking for Streamer poles - Schroedter
Servo info - Bradley
Rubber Supplies - Barker
Royono etc - Stalick
Re: F1A IDEAS
I am only now replying to you even though you have been in my "Reply
Soon" folder for six months.
So have you been flying much? I made it down to two contest last month
and did ok consedering it was my first ones in almost a year. I am the
only Nordic flyier in alaska. I was out flying for fun this evening it
was a balmy 30deg f purfect actually Only short flights 30 seconds as
the tundra is a frozen crust to walk across.I was towing from a road
alagned with the vary light breeze. a couple of years ago they went
crazy for power poles out here-(what, you want eletricity go down
south!!)so there are now few places to fly from in till the ponds, river
and , lakes freez up. Good to fly from but bad for towing carlessly in
the wind. In fact yesterday it was blowing about ten knots and I had
the towline wrap around my running shoe. As the model was screaming
nose down toward the ground I reached down and snaped the tow line with
one hand! After watching my model miss the ground by about three feet
and the adrenalian went away I looked at my hand for the expected kevlar
sawed laceration-nothing-and it looked like the line broke at the point
it attaches to a 6m section of the thick line for handling. Lucky me as
the nordic would have been toast on the crusty tundra.
You made a comment about my rudder if you look at my web site you will
see that I have made it wider.
I hope you are interested in flying. You will find that building these
models just as easy as with balsa. Wings are easer to get a finished
product-it all depends how much you want to do.
When it comes to compatition it is really the sportsman at the end of
the line-except for the extended round in the morning any thing will go
up in a thermal and the most costly well enganered super glider will
sink rapidly in bad air-but of course you allready know this(and so do
For my latest I am building fusalages for some wings I purchesed.(see
web site) I was ready to make the pods(pine core w/ply sides-you know
old school) when I decided that the tow hooksI have did not realy soot
the situation I was desinging.I felt I could make a better lighter hook
that was not part of the fuselage and its weeknesses I was trying to
I like your idea gitting ahead of the curve instead of following!!!
There is room for improvement that will not lend itself to the mass
production of buy-tech models available. Do not get me wrong they
serve a purpose and F1-A would not be what it is today without them.In
fact last yearI bought a set of wings from Vasily Beschasny they are a
Keep in mind that my models look diferent becouse what you realy see are
the product of my mind and few of these have flown. I find as you well
know that my projects keep getting interupted by life. Who knows my
goil for this winter is to have one good early morning glider with a
little of my own stuff-wish me luck-
Let me know what you think of my stuff on the web site
good luck with your stuff as well
Keep in touch.
> I am returning to F1a after a 20 year layoff (normal excuses --
> college, marriage, job, moving from the west coast to the east coast,
> blah, blah blah). Like Rip Van Winkle, things seem to have
> changed! Been flying my old balsa spruce circle towers, and looking
> to build carbon/kevlar...Thinking of trying to get ahead of the curve,
> rather than follow..
> Seems like all of the models look alike, with the exception of those
> on your page!
> Your rear mounted flying fin looks very interesting. My 2 Simple
> Toys that I am flying have a front mounted flying fin and fly well.
> However, that big flat plate at such an extreme angle has to be
> messing up a good portion of the stab -- your rear mounted fin,
> maybe thicker, could be the answer..
> Gene Ulm
"F1-A at the Nordic Cafe"
Sharing at the SWR
Would anyone be willing to share F1B and F1G timing and the use of your
bike at the Southwest Regionals?
X RAY & electronic timers
Soon all airline baggage will be X rayed, what effect will this have
on black magic & red magic timers, and the palm pilot computers used for
There are no problems that I am aware of. My models
have been x-rayed several times as has been my Palm Pilots.
The Ultimate Gollywock
I am working on a comparison chart for various modelers' approach to flying
the Gollywock. The purpose of this project is to help the newcomer improve
his preformance with this ultra common design. I plan on submitting this to
NFFS and SAM for publication. In it I am including each person's model's CG
location, empty weight, optimum rubber motor, incidence angles, prop
diameter and pitch, and thrust settings. I also am including a space for
comments or novel tips on wringing the most performance out of the model.
For example Gene Wallock's comment that a Gollywock should always be
launched "almost straight up". Also if you know your model's dead air
potential include it as well. Finally please note the Gollywock version you
prefer, eg Gollywock II, original, or Midwest "New Gollywock".
So I am appealing to the FF masses to submit your data to me for inclusion
in this chart. I envision this as an lasting resource for future generations
of Golly-guys and -gals.
I recently came across an airfoil article in which a particular type was
descrbed as "RN sensitive". Can anyone tell me what this signifies, please?
Does it mean that the type of foil must be used at high RNs, for example,
indicating perhaps that it should be used at larger chords than is usual.
Yes, I know that RNs are dependent on chord AND speed but the speed that
models fly do not vary that much - no? A CdH might require a larger chord
than is usual?
Looking for Streamer poles
My son Martin and I are looking to find reasonably serviceable
streamer poles that can be collapsed down to 40". Obviously to be
strapped to the outside of our model boxes for transit to distant
fields. If any reader of SEN can give us advice, please send it to
Martin will pass the information to me here.
Thanks, George Schroedter
In one of the latest SCAT SEN issues you mention a Cirrius CS 10 servo
available from Hobby People I believe. Done either Cirrius or Hobby People
have a web sight? How doe it compare to the Hitec HS-50?
Our experince is that the generic servo made by GWS and sold under a
variety of labes such as Cirrius and FMA have very good electronics
and are more repeatable than Hitec. I know there are people
that use the small Hitec with out trouble in F1B.
Hobby People are at www.hobbypeople.net]
>From the early days of FAI Tan rubber I have felt that development has
been in the wrong direction. It was such a good product right from the
start that what I thought was needed was not improvements in the energy
level but improvements in the consistency of the energy.
The improvements in energy content over the past few years have come at
a time when we are seeking to reduce performance to suit the few
available flying sites. Consequently the rubber weight allowances, both
indoor and outdoor, have had to be reduced. This has meant that the
search for the better bit of rubber is even more cut throat.
The lack of consistency has left many flyers frustrated when they know
that their 'luck of the draw' box of rubber is not going to get them as
high as the 'good stuff'. What the average flyer want is a level
playing field, but does he get it? No!, the very opposite. In the past
the good batches of rubber have been offered first to the top
international flyers. I know from conversations how much this irks the
average flyer. Do we want to make the group of top flyers smaller and
smaller or would we like to see it grow by giving everyone a fair
I refrained from the recent discussion at the demise of Tan2. I thought
it sensible, as many correspondents said, to let the dust settle and
give John Clapp a chance to sort things out. However John himself has
brought the matter up again in SEN 763 and it seems to be the same story
as before. Looking for better and better Tan Super Sport and offering
the best batches to the top international flyers.
Am I alone in wanting John Clapp to concentrate on consistency of energy
content even if this is a few percent below the maximum that could be
John Barker - England
[John - an editorial reply - not just to you comments but to
others of similar or more aggresive vein.
With respect to your point about the energy return - there are
indeed many flyers, including the dreaded top international
'sportsmen' , who believe as you do - that it would be better
to produce consistant reliable rubber than erratic, fragile
super performance rubber. However FAI Model Supply is John's business
so he makes the final choice.
I have found that John is very straight forward. He tells people what the
batches are - which his predessor would not. He tries hard to accomdate
people around the world. The only time where John has shown
any preference to the elite sportsman is that he had a shipment
just before the last world champs and brought essentially a box
for each contestant - just to make sure that event those from across
the Atlantic could not complain that they did not have the
same stuff as everyone else. I know that this generated a some of complaints
but it seems to me that this was very petty on the part of the complainers.
The main reason why the top F1B flyers have better rubber is because they buy
more and test it more. One of the facts of life with the
rubber it that it varys from batch to batch and even within the batch.
Looking in my rubber cupboard you will see 7 or 8 ten pound boxes of
rubber - in various states of emptiness. And I do not consider that I'm
top international sportman - and I know that others have more rubber than
and there are others who have none at all. Beacuse I test my motors
I know what is good and what is not. I save the good rubber for important
events. Inside a box the energy and quailty can change dramatically
at splice. When you look at from the point of view of a person who
buys a smaller quanity there is a larger luck factor - FAI makes up
the smaller boxes by measuring out the rubber from a big box. Sometimes
that rubber is going to better than others - that's just they way it is.
Clearly John is not going to test and certify the energy output from
each box !!
John does not store the good stuff away for the top guys - whoever they are
in fact in watching John fly he does not appear to even have
the killer stuff - whatever that is - himself. John, and
for sure his wife Sally are business people, they want to sell the
rubber. An inventory costs them money and I cannot see them saying
- this stuff looks really great - We've got an order from Tony and Addies
Hobby shop for some 1 pound boxes - but I don't think I ship to them
after all they just fly little models indoors. I'll wait 3 months
until I get my next batch - just in case Oleg, Jerry, Walt
or Anselmo want this batch some time next year !
It's simple if your're an indoor guy and you just have to have the best
stuff - buy a 10 pound box or two - get the best out of the box.
Sure the the rubber will cost you a little more for each pound -
but that's the incremental cost in getting the same stuff as
the top guys.
A number of modellers here get requests from friends abroad saying
can you get me rubber from such and scuh a batch - usually several
months or even years back. That is never possible. those old
batches are long gone. Sometimes there is still rubber from
the last batch in another size. FAI Model Supply has been
known to accomodate people by spliting that dowm on request.
I've heard that John has received abusive, even threatnening e-mail,
let's be reasonable here and keep our sport in perspective.
John and Ed Dolby have had s tremendous positive influence
of rubber flying. For 15 years they have supplied on a more
or less regular basis all the rubber we needed. Sure
the energy output fluctuated a bit and quality dipped from time to time
but it is a whole lot better than in the past. If we look
at other powered classed - gas and electric there are variations
why even batteries that come of a highly sophisticated production
line vary so that you read about serious electro fly
and electric car guys balancing and testing their batteries. This variation
in energy is just another factor that makes free flight what it is.
With respect to John's comment about rubber at the Maxmen - all John is doing
is trying to find out how many people will show at the Maxmen wanting rubber.
It is expensive shipping rubber to another country as well as customs etc
He will bring the rubber across country to Lost Hills so they can
pick it up there. I'm sure if someone is not attending the Maxmen and
wants some of that rubber that FAI Model Supply will be pleased to send
it to them. ]
I have two responses for questions asked in SEN 763:
1. Royono Plans. The Royono was carried as a full sized plans by John Pond's
Plan Service, now owned by AMA. According to my sources, these plans will be
made available in the near future by AMA. I suggest that it may be early
Spring before they are available, however I don't know for sure.
2. A-6 Rules. The current A-6 rules used in the Brainbusters Postal Contest
are as follows:
a. 30 sq. in. max wing area.
b. 1/32" max prop shaft dia.
c. 6 inch max prop diameter. The blades are to be flat, no camber. Blades may
be made of balsa or unlighhtened plastic, but not foam. 1/32" sheet (1mm
d. 6 inch max motor stick length as measured tfrom the prop thrust bearing to
the rear hook. Tail boom length unlimited.
e. All strip wood construction si to be a minimum of 1/16" x 1/16" or 1.5mm x
1.5 mm where only metric sizes are available. The strip wood may not be
sanded to any shape other than a square.
f. All sheet wood construction, prop blades, wing and stab ribs are to be a
minimum of 1/32" or 1mm thick. Prop blade edges are not to be rounded.
g. All wing and stab ribs will be 1/32" x 1/16" or 1.5mm x 1.5mm minjimum
h. Covering materials are limited to japanese tissue, condenser or Gampi
i. Only wood, wrie, adhesivess and allowed covering materisla can be used for
construction with the exception of the prop shaft support and bearing whcih
may be wire, aluminum or plastic. No special indoor materials may be used.
j. Rubber power only.
k. The use of metric sized wood is restricted to those that normally cannot
get other wood sizes.
l. The model must weigh a minimum of 1.2 grams.
Further information on this postal event can be obtained from Abram VanDover
at 112 Tillerson Drive, Newport News, VA 23602.
Bob Stalick, NFFS
Thanks to Don Zink and Pierre Brun for their donations in
support of SEN.