SCAT Electronic News 15 mMrch 2001 issue 556
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SCAT Electronic News 15 March 2001 issue 556
Table of Contents
=================
SCAT Annual Info
fat cat for sale - Stiles
everthing i have is for sale ! - Stiles
F1C shifts gear ? - Magner
Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: SEN Survey]] - Skykeing
A Championship for Minis - Schroedter
Looking at the Gear - Achterberg
Embryo, Cloud Tramp postal contests - Moesley
Orange County Science Olympiad Wright Stuff results (long) - Baxter
SCAT Annual Contest
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Bissonette-Mirage Field ? Lost Hills, CA ? March 17 and 18, 2001
An America's Cup Contest
Schedule
Saturday, March 17 Sunday, March 18
OPEN Events: 8:00 AM to 3:00 PM Mini Events: 8:00 AM to 1:00 PM
Seven 1 hr rounds Five 1 hr rounds
? F1A Nordic - 3 1/2 minutes. ? F1G Coupe
? F1B Wakefield - 3 1/2 minutes. ? F1H A-1 Glider
? F1C Power - 4 minutes. ? F1J Power
Round 1 Open FAI: Time to the ground for
Fly-off schedule will be announced
"Morning High Time" Award at the close of Round 5.
Fly-off schedule will be announced
at the close of Round 7.
Entry Fees: Juniors welcome!
$20.00 for First Open Event Award for Junior
$5.00 for additional events High Time!
$10.00 per Mini-Event
(18 or younger in 2001)
Juniors are Free!!
Awards in all events!
AMA and Lost Hills
Field memberships
are required.
Record Seekers: The current F1A Open, F1A Junior, F1C and F1H AMA
Records have been set at
this contest in years past! Make history at the SCAT Annual!
Contest Director:
Tom Coussens
25442 Via Dona Christa
Valencia, CA 91355
(661) 222-7137
[PS I hear a rumor that the there might be a different field
layout with a different parking place
so if youi arrive late Friday watch ot.]
fat cat for sale
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like new respond to charlie stiles will ship anywhere!
everthing i have is for sale !
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to many things going on with this sport. its not like it was ten years ago.
kinda remember when you built your own stuff and flew it. I really got
confussed along the way and thought bying was the way to go even though it
takes alot of skill from years of modiling to put those bought parts together
its not like showing up with your own stuff to compete. have lost total
interest in this sport or hobby. i will never forget the paper i wrote for
the symposiam as an advocate of getting rid of the buil;der of the model
rule years ago. good luck to you all i have had lots of fun and will miss
you guys. charlie, its all acterberg stuff wings of all sizes tailbooms
ects. 2 104" 2 107" complete 100" that is on wieght and test flown.
F1C shifts gear ?
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Roger and/or Bill Bogart, In response to the questionnairre on F1C.
I obviously fly F1C.
* I am not in favor of banning the geared model completely, because of the
development that has gone into it and we need new approaches to all FF events.
BUT!!! Until that type equipment is available to all modelers, at a
reasonable price, it would not be fair to give those that have geared models
the advantage over modelers who do not have geared models. There is still
some question (depends on whom you talk to: Ed Keck feels 4.5 sec is fair:
Doug Galbreath feels 4.3 sec is fair, Bob Sifleet feels 4.0 sec is fair) as
to how much advantage the geared model has. I have talked to many modelers at
Bob Sifleet's request, and from the conversations I have had most people fee l
a handicap of from 4.3-4.5 seconds for the geared models is fair. This
handicap should be reviewed on a yearly basis to make sure it stays fair
either way. This option was not presented as a choice and I feel the
questionnaire was not open enough to give a proper cross section of modelers
feelings.
I don't know how many modelers that fly F1C will want to spend anywhere from
$4500 to 6000 for a stable of 3 geared models; plus the unbelievable problem
of replacement parts and servicing over the long distances. I do know that
there are approximately 15 geared models here in the states and also a small
number of geared units. THAT IS HALF THE F1C FLYERS IN THIS COUNTRY. Eugene
has already supplied 50% of his market base. What happens when that becomes
his whole market base if no one else buys this product and F1C participation
falls off dramatically. Has anybody given thought to this?? AND, as per what
I was told, Verbitsky would prefer to sell only full completed models, rather
than the geared unit only.
At the moment , I am sure F1C flers have been preparing for the next Team
Selection, and with that, I have 5 models under construction, 2 others
finished and test glided ready for good weather. This is a tremendous
investment in time not thinking about the cash outlay. It would be very
discouraging if only the geared models take the first three team places at
the next finals. AND we have not thought what happens if an AMA event flyer
or two buy one of these units and wipe out a bunch of first and second places
at the Nats?? How will that effect the average FF flyer???
* SO, I am in favor of a handicap for the geared models.
* I am not in favor of the geared model without the handicap.
* I will consider a reasonably priced geared unit if anyone can purchase it
in the normal market place without any restrictionms!!!
Seriously,
Joe Wagner
Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: SEN Survey]]
============================
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This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. wrote:
> I thought this was a hobby.....Rick
WHAT!!! You thought this was a HOBBY? No wonder you piddle
around having fun.
FAI is the ultimate obsessive compulsive disorder
manifested through hands on pursuit of ultimate
inconsequentiality by methods agreed upon through consensus
of a small number of air worshiping cult members pursuing
ego justification and thus gratification by taking turns
excelling each other in a specialized game of frustrating
gravity for a pre-determined length of time via the
employment of specialized toys.
NOW, do you finally understand, Rick?
Any other supposedly self-evident truths you are having
trouble with please ask.
Skyguru
A Championship for Minis
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Roger:
We have seen a wonderful growth in
FAI free flight competition the last 10 years---especially after the BOM rule
was eliminated. But the greatest growth has been in the G, H J "mini"
events. Present day coupes are flying as well as wakefields flew 20 years
ago. This leads me to believe that we can now seriously consider holding some
type of "Team Mini Championships" in the even numbered years.
Whether this would
be similar to the present international World Championships for the A, B C
events or something on a smaller scale can be decided. This could easily be
another boost for free flight, since there are many more flying sites suitable
for 2-minute maxes.
Let's see what the SEN readers have
to say.
George
Schroedter
Looking at the Gear
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This is what I sent to our new Rep. to CIAM. Hopefully this will clear up
some misperceptions about the gear or non-gear. Maybe in 4 years we will
need to revisit this, but as it stands now the best move is no move as far
as the F1C community is concerned!! Tell me, have you ever heard a F1C flyer
complain about more power!! Not in my lifetime!! Here is hoping sanity
prevails!!
Thermals' ~~~~~Michael Achterberg
>Hello Bill;
>First off, glad to hear you are our new Rep. at the CIAM meetings. This is
>about the current flap about the gear. Hope you have not been caught in the
>middle of what should be a non-topic as it currently stands. It is the old
>argument of; I don't have it, therefore I don't want it, and therefore it
>should be band! And besides it costs too much and you cannot get it!!
>Typical comments and perceptions!!!
>To the cost- If a person bought a new engine $255.00 plus post, mount from
>Doug G. $120.00 plus post, Folding prop and hub from Norm Poti mounted
>$80.00, spare blades finished $35.00 plus post age they would be investing
>over $500.00. This means the gear unit is a cost of $300.00.
>Now, if Nelson came out with a new .15 that produced the power of let's say
>the .21 and asked for $350.00 or $400.00 everybody couldn't get to the bank
>fast enough to buy it!! So cost is irrelevant as an argument.
>Now, as for availability, EV has been offering them to us for 3 years.
Also,
>with a little prodding Nelson is going to make them. Also, I am hoping to
>create a marriage of sorts between Nelson and EV. EV does not want to make
>engines and Henry does not want to make gears, so I am proposing that EV
>make the gears and the mounts for the Nelson. Also, to have Henry make
>available the retro fit of a new gear case and crank for the modelers so
>they can use all of the parts from their current engines I.e.. piston,
>liner, head, clamp ring, spinner, venturi, ect. This will keep the cost
down
>considerably.
>Now, as for excess performance. There is no argument that it gets higher.
>but it has shown us that our prop technology has a big problem. The gear
>unloads about 1500 RPM more than the standard.
>We are running the standard prop to close to mach, and therefore hitting 90
>plus% of mach and creating massive inefficiency. We can learn from this
>lesson and therefore cut the altitude gap. And then there is the question
of
>the big props and frontal area of the gear unit verses the regular. These
>are questions that still need to discovered as far as performance is
>concerned.
>Ev. has not been dominating the world with the gear. In fact, it has cost
>him more than he has gained! He did not even win the World Cup with the
>gear! And he is the best F1C flyer in the world!! So as for the advantage,
>the jury is still out!!! The perception of a couple of flights in lift that
>the non-geared models did not fly in has become the REALITY!! If the geared
>models would have flown at the start of the 7:00 minute flyoff round and
the
>non-geared had flown at the end of that window, the gears would not have
>made the 7:00 min. and probably most of the non-geared models would have
and
>this situation would not even be discussed!! Awe, perception verses
>reality!!
>This has been written to you in hopes that reality wins over perception and
>that nothing will be done at the CIAM meeting that will be backdoored,
>banned, to hurt the current growing interest in F1C!!
>In short, please let the boys play with their new toys!!!
>Bye for now!! Thermals'
> Michael Achterberg
>
Embryo, Cloud Tramp postal contests
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Gentlemen - I have two 'specialised' short-term Postal Contests running this
summer which I hope might interest you. Full results will be supplied to
participants.
1. Embryo Endurance - June 1st - July 31st. 3 flights to 120 maximum
plus unlimited f/o if required.
Models to F.A.C. rules except that handlaunch is permissible at the
expense of forfeiture of bonus points.
2. Cloud Tramp - the all-balsa Chas.H.Grant design. August 11 - Sept
30th. 5 flights, no maximum, longest and shortest flights will be
discarded and balance totalled. Start date coincides with the annual 'Grant
Mimloct Mass Launch' which attracted almost 200 participants last year and
expected to have appreciably more in 2001.
Full details/entry forms from This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. , by mail: Jim Moseley, 19
Banner Crescent, Ajax, Ontario L1S 3S8 Canada
Either, or both, of these events may be 'doubled-up' with longer-term
classes in the Worldwide Postal, or flown seperately - your choice!
Orange County Science Olympiad Wright Stuff results (long)
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The Thermal Thumber's ran the Orange County Science Olympiad airplane event
this year. Winners will qualify to enter the State elimination contest at
Long Beach next month, and those winners will go on to the nationals. The
Orange County competition was held March 9th.
The schools were assigned to two sites. Fullerton College had only High
School teams. Golden West College had both High School and Middle School
teams.
I don't know how the high school teams at the two sites will be ranked for
the county.
Lonnie Cope wrote the following report on what happened at Golden West. I
(Dick Baxter) wrote a report on Fullerton results which follows Lonnie's
report.
Golden West College results
On March 9.2001 a crew of five modelers spent the day officiating the Wright
Stuff portion of this years Science Olympiad preliminary competition held at
Golden West College. They were Dick Drake, Dick Smith, Paul Anderson, John
Morrill and myself. Each of the first four were too bashful to be interviewed
on TV: so the Channel 50 camera women filmed a few minutes of an interview
with me. A portion of the interview appeared on that nights Real Orange
program! I'M A TV STAR/NERD, AND HAVE THE VIDEO TO PROVE IT!
Our facility had eight registered high school teams and 13 middle school
teams. Each team of two or less students was permitted a maximum of two
flights, with no minimum flight times. We timed 24 flights for middle school
teams and 8 flights for high school teams.
Teams having either a modeling consultant or having competed a prior year
generally entered flyable well constructed models that were trimmed prior to
showing up. There were several two minute practice flights and many over one
minute. Participants of the novice experience level entered the usual nearly
hopeless designs with typical construction problems. One team, I believe,
test flew such a model and didn't bother to compete. We had an underweight
expert model (left over from last year?) and two of three out of spec models
and a number of overweight motors. We weighted the motor used for each
official flight, as we were not impounding motors or planes.
Few teams had really read or understood the model specification rules. A few
wings got clipped in span and another in chord prior to entry. The most
missed rule was size of control tab, with many using a strip of 3/4 inch wide
clear mending tape.
Questions were abundant. Such as : How wide is 0.5 cm? Does anyone have any
clay/glue/ lube? What is downthrust?
While I was filling out the official scoring sheets after the competition,
Drake showed a copy of AMA's "Wright Stuff" brochure to Dr. Grimes and her
helpers. They quickly read through it and then he was told, "we really needed
that booklets information to properly answer a lot of requests we received in
advance of the competition." To her credit, Dr. Grimes had opened the gym for
two evening practice sessions prior to the competition, although not all
teams knew of this last minute addition of practice times.
The middle school competition was exciting: with team high flight times of
116.5 seconds, 115.3 seconds, and 115.2 seconds. These times are the best
flight for H/L models weighing 10 grams or more with 2 grams or less of rubber
motor. One of these scores was posted early in the day,
another almost at closing time.
The high school competitors flew ROG versions of the same measurement rules,
not generally doing as well in flight scores, but having better
flying models.
Ceiling walking upset the trim of one modeler (Chris Jolly) causing both
flights to dive to the floor. A ceiling walk removed someone's wing: another
let to a hung up and others redirected competitors flights into the walls.
Models that crashed were often knocked out of adjustment, and since there is
no allowance for more trimming flights, the second flight was often short.
One team added a "few more winds" then they had test flown, and power stalled
onto a 3 point takeoff stance (10 second bonus) in 3.3 seconds.
Jolly, AMA competition experienced in R/C, I believe, was heard to state:
"there is a lot more to this than I thought".
Only one high school team (two girls) were novices. They needed some coaching
from other than their school friends. Handicap # 1 was an incomplete
knowledge of aircraft language! [Lets see you explain maximum chord rules to
a glazed eye contestant!!] Other problems were prop on backwards landing gear
too short for takeoff and all wire was green floral type (even propshaft).
They worked diligently all day attempting to get ready to fly.
In the following results, there is no distinguishing between teams that
choose to fly one model twice and those teams that choose to fly two separate
models one time each.
Middle School Teams
McAuliffe Andy Glass/Richie Grimes 81.0 116.5
El Rancho #1 Justin Hawan/Christina Tron 48.0 115.3
Cerro Villa Richard Smith/Eric Dixon 111.5 115.2
Marco Forester Richardo Leonardo/Daniel Watt 61.0 7.0
Santiago Devin Clarke/William Lawrence 29.5* 19.2
El Rancho #2 Kyle Lee/Joseph Smith 17.0 25.8
Oak Steven Brook 19.0 19.4
McPherson Jamie McGrane/Alexander Musser 8.7 10.3
Kraemer Nikhil Thiruvengadam/Huy Nguyen 6.4 9.8
Irvine Home School Jesse May/Steven Flores 3.0 6.6
Ladera Vista Phillip Palovich 3.8 2.3
Thurston Dylan Sachse/? Blodget 2.2 3.6
* We had an interesting timer discussion after this flight
the model struck a raised basketball backboard pipe framework; hanging for
a few seconds, during which time the fuselage had rotated enough to free the
model, which then dove nose first into the floor. YOU CALL IT.
High School Teams
Dana Hills Nathan Gotzwiller/Landon Carlson
118.5 + 10 =3D 128.5 126.0 + 10 =3D 136.0
Los Alimitos Scott Grandt/ Mitchell Paulson
92.0 + 10 =3D 102.0 83.8 + 10 =3D 93.8
Villa Park William Chiang/ Geoffrey Lee
3.3 + 10 =3D 13.3 85.2 + 10 =3D 95.2
Fullerton Results
Staff: Dick Baxter, Bill Creany, Larry Dobyn and Gordon Strictland
We only had High School teams at Fullerton. Twelve teams total were assigned
to Fullerton of which 9 entered Wright Stuff. Eight made successful flights.
Everybody made 2 out of 2 allowed attempts.
We only had one really good flight, 158.3 seconds plus 10 seconds landing
bonus for 168.3 second total.
The model never touched the ceiling. I suspect it wasn't fully wound.
We had at least 2, maybe 3 other models which should have done better than
they did. All these suffered bad ceiling collisions and dived out or turned
into walls and did a wall slide to the floor.
We had 3 all balsa models, one home brew and 2 Guillows pursuits. One stock
Guillows airplane flew well but not very long as you would expect. The other
Guillows was modified by adding camber increasing ribs on the top of the
wing, which was then wrapped (covered) with tissue. The home brew and
reworked Guillows models were way out of trim.
None of the "good" models were unusual. The main differences were some used
lifting tails, and some used short instead of tall wing posts. The winner had
a flat stab and tall wing posts. His prop may have been twisted to higher
pitch.
Times
school
1st 158.3 plus 10 Troy
2nd 110.7 plus 10 Canyon
3rd 77.8 no bonus El Modena team "A"
4th 58.8 no bonus Valencia
5th 45.8 no bonus Esperanza
6th 9.6 plus 10 Fullerton
7th 8.0 plus 10 El Modena team "B"
8th 5.0 plus 10 Capo Valley
9th did not lift off University
The flying site was Fullerton College men's=E2=80=99 gym. Ceiling is 26=E2=
=80=99 to fairly
dense girders above. Several hanging light fixtures protruding around 2 feet
below the girders. Only one model flew above the girders for any length of
time and it came to grief.
Everybody from 2nd to 4th hit either hanging lights or the 9 girders and
bounced badly. Every body above 5th was probably capable of 150 seconds or
more in a clear site.
Good Flying
Dick Baxter
.........................
Roger Morrell
