SCAT Electronic News 7 December 2001 issue 652
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SCAT Electronic News 7 December 2001 issue 652
Declining F1C participation - a different perspective - Ellis
A Lurker Speaks - Moseley
Jack Bolton--free flight mentor - Avalone[s]
Toys, props, and balsa wood mentality - Skykieng
The price of their toys - Acme
Rules & Stuff - Coleman
Changing your e-mail address
2002 America's Cup schedule ? - Norvall
F1C Character - Jahnke
Declining F1C participation - a different perspective
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I would propose that the decline in F1C participation is not caused by a
problem with the product, but rather with the marketing and sales
departments. Actually a close inspection of our enterprise shows that our F1C
sales department is very, very weak. Some would say our F1C marketing
department doesn't exist. Each F1C flier needs to recruit new participants.
Go out and find a potential flier; let them try the event, listen to what
they say, and only then sit back and see what the problem is.
>From where are new fliers going to come - probably not from the ranks of AMA
gas. They too suffer from the same lack of a sales department and also see
little new blood. Those that fly AMA gas exclusively have generally already
tried F1C and FAI events are certainly not for everyone. I think you will
find new blood in auto shops, on racetracks and on drag strips. Set a booth
up at a NASCAR race and see the response you get. There are millions of
"piston-head" want-a-be's out there for which FIC flying is a reasonable
focus for their interest. John Lorbecki Sr. and Jr. shared wonderful insights
with me at the Nats last summer. They convinced me that the love of power,
speed and noise is ingrained in a person. We need to find those people and
guide them.
If we had hundreds of people trying F1C but walking away, I would say that we
should look at the rules. How can we say that the high cost of F1C flying is
keeping people away? The problem is that no one is even taking a look. The
fact is that we probably don't see more than one new person try the event in
any one year in the whole US. Forget about making new rule proposals and
instead make proposals to find new potential participants.
Art Ellis
A Lurker Speaks
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I 'lurk' upon this List as, though I'm no longer interested in the present
International classes, the discussions on same are often illuminating and
can provoke a spin-off for other disciplines on occasion. I have watched
with interest the (often conflicting) messages about the possible declining
support for some FAI activities, particularly F1C. One correspondent wrote:
"There must be many other power fliers out there who would be tempted by a
more accessible F1C "
I have no doubt that he is 100% correct. Though I cannot now count myself
amongst such, one has only to look at the growth in enthusiasm of Nostalgia
in the US and the tremendous upsurge in power flying in the UK since 'Slow
Power' was introduced (which I feel will be paralleled, in due course, by
'Classic Power' in North America) to note that there is a large body of
modellers who prefer simpler airplanes and from whose ranks many might
migrate to F1C if that class was less esoteric..
"Historical evidence has shown that with a major rules change some number of
participants will probably abandon the class." This is inevitable when such
changes further restrict and inhibit the class in question, even though such
initial inhibitions will eventually result in design/engine/structure
developments which raise performance standards to the point that another
major rules change commences the entire cycle once again.
My own decline in FAI interest is undoubtedly not typical. I used to fly A2
and FAI Power way back ... in general terms I disliked flying in Rounds, for
one event then occupied virtually an entire day and prevented me from flying
in other classes. My participation in Power abruptly ceased when the
Federation of Asinine Ideas raised the minimum weight of same by 50% from
17.76 ozs.; my entire modelling philosophy has been 'add lightness' and to
deliberately build 'lead-sleds' goes against the grain - even now I resent
matching the weights required by Nostalgia and P30 rules.
Another writer commented ... "what it would cost me if I decided to buy two
of the best new and geared F1C's and all the required support equipment. I
think he said something like 8 grand."
$8000.00 required to be competitive ... 'nuff said. That's one reason
guaranteed not to attract new blood into the class, from the ranks of those
who consider themselves as model builders rather than model flyers.
Admittedly the purchaser of such models requires a high level of experience
to handle them properly (though one wonders how long it will be before such
arrive preprogrammed and fully trimmed) but is there any sense of
achievement in winning an event with one? Is the next step a 'contest' where
the organisers rent out a fleet of identical airplanes to 'contestants'?
One might almost achieve as much satisfaction by purchasing a trophy with
his name already engraved upon it....... (Comments from winners will be
forthcoming, I'm sure!)
" The more that airframes are purchased complete, the more a toy-like
quality that amounts to." Absolutely!
" How much more does it cost to campaign an F1C than a HLG?" Well, there's
someone with a realistic sense of humour, for sure....
"may well lead to a WC with just four of five well equipped contestants who,
between flights, wander about asking why nobody else is able to come and
play with them." Perhaps unlikely in the immediate future .. but
impossible? No.
IMHO it is now too late to see any resurgence in the three major FAI classes
and the same decline of participation in the 'mini' events is bound to
follow in due course. The FAI has changed the rules over the decades in
good faith (in most cases), trying to level the field whilst promoting
world-class competition between all aeromodellers everywhere; it has
achieved that competitive purpose admirably but in doing so has limited same
to a relatively small number (in global terms)
of very accomplished builders and some well-heeled flyers. I do not think
that was the initial objective.
For FAI Power, it's too late to now call for rule changes reverting to
wooden airplanes with locked-up surfaces. Had the latter been banned at an
early stage structural and design development would have continued but there
would certainly have been a point at which stability limitations would have
terminated the horsepower race ... but there would undoubtedly be far
greater interest and participation in the class than at present.
I watch, and admire, the trajectory of a well trimmed F1C from a distance -
and have every respect for those who choose to build and fly these, and
other FAI classes, with such dedication (emphasis on 'build') but feel that
they are treading a very narrow path towards an uncertain destination.
Returning to 'lurk' mode ...
Jim Moseley
Jack Bolton--free flight mentor
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Dear Roger,
We received some really sad news yesterday. The modelling
communitylost a beloved member, Jack Bolton.
Jack played a valuable role in our entry to free flight. Jack lived in
Navarre, Florida, were he had decided to retire after his prominent life in
the Air Force. In the Air Force, he oversaw all forgein exchanges and
purchases of US aircraft. He used his influencee from the military, and
played an intricate role in the Pensacola Free Flight Team's access to the
various naval fields in the area. Mr. Bolton CD'd everything from small
club contests to the international SAM Champs. He welcomed and encouraged
newcomers to the free flight community like us. We all agree that Jack was
a "modeler's modeler."
Jack ,to me, was a good friend, and always offered any assistance he
could to convey the basic principles of getting an airplane trimmed. None of
us will ever forget those hot, Flordia mornings with Jack and the Pensacola
Free Flight Team. He once served as a chase partner in two off-field chases
with me, and my brother Michael. He trudged through streams and forests
with me to find a lost airplane in mid-day summer in Florida. As you can
imagine, it was not fun. Despite his tiredness, he helped Michael in
another chase the next day on a rural Florida trek.
Jack was a friend, and a mentor. He loved the smell of dope, an oldtimer
covered in Silk, and a well-tuned ignition engine carrying a Playboy far far
away. We will all miss Jack. Our deepest condolences go to his wife and
children.
Eddie, Michael, and Anthony Avallone
Toys, props, and balsa wood mentality
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Toyness
=======
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
In a message dated 12/3/01 10:39:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. wrote:
<>
I would contend almost the opposite. The more that airframes
are
purchased complete, the more a toy-like quality that amounts to.
Complexity
notwithstanding.
Mark Bennett,
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Mark, ol' buddy, you are dead wrong. Didn't you ever relish "Flight
of the Pheonix"? Don't you remember when the model airplane designer,
played by Hardy Kruger, was confronted by the fact that he was a toy
airplane designer -- thus implying he was incapable of
re-engineering the crashed airplane to fly again? Hardy, with great
scorn replied to this effect" A toy airplane is something that you
wind up, set down, and watch crawl across the floor." So there.
Thank you for setting me up. I loved that movie. Always like to give
it a plug.
I do understand what you are getting at, and it is important to me to
build my own, but actually the definition of a toy is: An object for
children to play with ...something of little importance; a trifle. The
question of what is a toy and what is not really depends on one's
particular philosophy. When a fellow modeler tells me he is "....
going out to fly his toy airplanes" I take that remark with a big
grain of salt.
Concerning going back to balsa construction: In the Denver area we
have four individuals who are primarily attracted to FAI Power. Much
of that interst is fueled because the extremne state of the art
elevates the FAI ships to the top of the free flight food chain. We
have others who are essentially cheerleaders and look on with
interest because they are fascinated by the breath- taking
performance. Stripping FAI Power of its elite performance status
would most likely see these four fiddling their thumbs -- and then
switching to Open Power hot rods. Who would move in to fill the gap?
Our Nostalgia and SLOP flyers? I don't think so.
Going back to fixed props is a miserable idea. I can remember the
difficulty of trying to make enough of those fragile things to get
through a season. And there was always subtle changes in performance
from one to the other. I guess if one flys over the fabled and
legendary "tall grass" then a prop could last a season. It would be
more practical to drop a drag chute to lower performance ...heaven
forbid!
And, please, Hermann. Drop the other shoe... "...don't count out
straight drives" ??? What is stirring in the back of your mind? What
property must a magic wand posses that will circumvent the
aerodynamic brick wall of low P/D and limited disc area? I keep going
around in circles trying to figure a way around the dismal fact
evident in the miserable performance envelope evident on prop charts.
Give us a hint! I'm desperate. I'll try anything!
Billious G.
The price of their toys
=======================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Lets see if I have the Cost Thing in perspective.F1C reductor $2000 ... F1B st
ate
of art $1700 ... F1A electronic $2000 ?????? AND We don't always act li
ke
grown-ups but the models we fly Are NOT toys......and besides humor sucks
acmeaero
[Isn't there a saying that the only thing different between men
and boys is the price of their toys ...]
Rules & Stuff
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I have been active in flying models , on and off, since 1947. The breaks
in modeling were filled with Drag Racing( AA Fuel), Fishing and Golf.
Fishing, racing and golf costs make the price of aeromodelling pale in
comparison. George Schroeder mentioned the beginning cost of F1C at
$8,000.00 which is the high side, $4,000.00 the minimum. That includes
two models, model box, starter that can fit in model box or small
package of it's own and support equipment and spare parts. I am assuming
you already have a chase vehicle and radio tracking device.
In any sport I have ever been involved in, rules that limit, size,
power, performance, and so on, only drive up the cost and technology up
to overcome the rules. So, I know that all the complaining about the new
stuff available in the FAI events is at best silly. I agree
wholeheartedly with Bob Waterman on this subject. Terry Thorkildsen also
makes a strong point, that consistency can overcome
what seems to be the advantage of auto surfaces and new materials.
Remember, Terry T. is the only guy to surpass the 100 minute barrier
using a totally locked down non-auto model.
The things that are making AMA and NFFS events shrink while FAI and RC
are flourishing are obvious. They are 1) Too damn many events. 2)
lengthy competitions such as 20 to 30 maxes in one day to get a win. and
3) the BOM(builder of model rule) come visit my shop...I've got at least
100 FF flying models all built buy myself. I have nothing to prove
about my ability to build a model, nor do any of the folks with whom I
compete. Prior to retiring from the aerospace business, I would take
simple to make flying models to company picnics, where I attracted the
kids like the Pied Piper. There folks would ask where can they get one
of those really neat models, to which I'd reply, you can't buy one but
I'll get you the materials and show you how to make and fly it. I NEVER
had any of those parents follow up on the offer, much to the dismay of
there sons & duaghters. Bob Stalick is right. AMA and Nostalgia should
be limited to three(1/2A, A/B and C/D) Classes. I believe that this
should encompass both Cat I and II. I think slow open power already
exists, for the uneducated it is called Nostalgia Gas.
The competition should be changed to have either one flight to the
ground or a series of flyoffs like FAI increasing the Max times while
not allowing an increase to the power portion. When you enter an event
where some one already has five maxes you can't win as he's going to fly
on top of you every time you try and catch up. If these three different
areas are not addressed AMA and Nostalgia as we know it will die with
those of us that still fly them. With a change in those areas we'll see
the average age of competitors become younger. I am an old geezer that
can see the average age of FAI flyers is considerably lower than that of
the AMA & NFFS events. Before some of you other old geezers gripe about
the new stuff you ought to show up at an FAI event and see it first
hand.
"Nuff Said
Roger Coleman
Changing your e-mail address
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2002 America's Cup schedule ?
=============================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Here it is the end of 2001. My how the year flies when you are having fun.
For me its bid time again for the upcoming year. Any drafts or ideas on
dates for contests next year. I'd hate for work to get in the way of
competition.
Thermals to all and to all a good flight, Larry Norvall
F1C Character
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Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
I have come to, what is for me, a startling realization. It is not the
character of F1C rules that shape the rates of innovation and participation
but the events position in the roster of free flight gas events. It is THE
open class gas event contested in world competition. It is the Holy Grail
of gas events. No matter what we do to restrict these models they will be
rare birds flown by rare persons.
Ross Jahnke
...........................
Roger Morrell
