SCAT Electronic News 5 October 1999
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SCAT Electronic News 5 October 1999
"SCAT - 40 Year's of FAI Free Flight Competition"
Table of contents
=================
electronic timers the old fashioned way - Salzer
THE WORLD CHAMPS FROM A ROOKIES PERSPECTIVE - Parker
RE: Remote DT - how to - Gregorie + editor
RCDT - against
Right on Chuck - Donde
RC DT - Ackery
RCDT - van dijk
Just a box - Hines
RDT - For
More - Bauer
Viewing Attachments
Opening mins - Busnelli
attachments - Salzer
Viewing Attachments. - Gregorie
RCDT on the fence -Jahnke
Stonehenge '99 - Gregorie
5 Gentlemenaly rounds with time for tea [or another brew] - Woodhouse
electronic timers - the old fashioned way
=========================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Trying to do something quite different I found out that building an
electronic timer is not so hard anymore:
I bought a ready-made micro-computer (a "basic stamp") the size
of a 24-pin-DIL-package, weighing around 5g, which can be programmed
in a special version of BASIC from your PC. Reading the programming
manual I found the possibility to output a signal which will drive any
commercial RC servo to any desired position with just one command.
A lightweight servo is around 6g. Add a battery (4x1.2V Nicad, from 5g
upwards) and you are below the weight of a Seelig (or a russian).
Write a program with all the frills you want, starting with multiple times
to release multiple levers (one after the other), setup information to be
read from a tiny DIL-switch, reading hook positions, up to accepting
flight program downloads from any hand-, lap- or desk"held" PC.
Just an idea so far, no tests (exept on my workbench).
Look around, electronics are available ... and just do not believe those
experts who start throwing complicated words (like latch, pulldown,
protection diode, ..) at you. They may be right if you talk about
production, but for hobby purposes some corners may be cut!
Have fun, and build your own! (Models _and_ hardware!)
Klaus W. Salzer
[Note this is the way, Jim Parker, Ken Koval, Ken Bauer and
undoubably other do it. .. I'll make some comments later but
there is too much stuff here that I have to get out
before I make my motors for Mr
Livotto's fine contest this weekend.]
THE WORLD CHAMPS FROM A ROOKIES PERSPECTIVE
===========================================
Faust Schleps in Israel
Julie and I had been up for 38 hours when we finally opened the door
to our not so "Smurfie" room at the Shulamit Gardens Hotel in
Ashkelon. A lengthy delay at Dulles in D.C. and a change of planes in
Frankfurt had really taken their toll on these weary travelers. By the
time we got our luggage, helped those whose luggage hadn't come off
the carousel try to locate same, stood in line forever to get rent
cars, we were ready to get to our home base. Fortunately Steve
Spence's friend from Israel, Svika (sp), had come to the airport in
Tel Aviv to make sure we were safely escorted to Ashkelon. Our all
American caravan finally set off on our Israeli World Championship
adventure.
Jet lag was not a problem, as we immediately went to bed sometime in
the early evening (Israel time) and then Steve and I got up at 5:30AM
to follow Alex and Vladi to the field. They had been there for several
days and had already scoped out the Ace Hardware store, the filling
station with "ICE" and the Field. It was a "speedy" one hour trip in
the dark, during which we weren't sure we were following the right
white van (all the cars in Israel are white!). Once we finally arrived
at the field we were pleasantly surprised to find an absolutely
beautiful flying site, comparable to Lost Hills (maybe bigger!). I had
decided the night before not to fly today and to use tomorrow's Negev
Open as a day to put some additional time on my "107" flyoff model.
Steve brought along his gliders so we worked on them for several hours
and then headed back to the hotel for lunch. We spent the rest of the
day checking out the hotel, making a trip to the "mall" and getting
ready for the next days flying.
The Negev Open was a perfect opportunity for individuals and the team
to get a feel for the air and the general chase conditions we would
face later in the W.C.s. Unfortunately those who's model boxes had not
showed up were left to spectate and help the rest of us. Since Ron
McBurnett was one of those unfortunates, Ed and I had already been
talking over which models Ron would use from our fleet should his not
get there in time. Ed did not fly in the "Open" because he was nursing
a sore knee and he wanted to have it right for the big day. George
and I quickly learned that the third round would be tricky, when we
both agreed that it "looked good" for me to fly and I immediately came
down like a rock. The F1B guys flew today as well.
The following day Steve and Brian flew glider and the rest of us
helped. Brian only got to fly because Steve had carried one of Brian's
models in his box. Jim's and Brian's models still had not arrived. Jim
has already told you the details of the glider experience so I won't
go into that. We learned a lot from these two days.
The following two days were spent test flying my short and long wing
models respectively. Every thing looked good, with little trim
adjustment necessary. Ron had gotten his models, but soon discovered
that he had not packed his props. Luckily I had both Oliver and
Achterberg props with numbers that would suit his models just fine, so
Ron was finally feeling like things were going his way. We finished
early enough both days to take in some sights in the afternoon. The
best of those journeys was to the Dead Sea.
Friday! Day one of the World Champs! Up at 3:30AM Looking for coffee
and rolls. Make sure that the F1A guys have their stuff together, then
the mad dash to the field. The locals must have really gotten a kick
out of all these white vehicles streaming out of Ashkelon in the wee
hours of the morning, just to turn off the road and then boogie across
the desert in a cloud of dust - you get the picture. The organizers
had done a great job with the official field headquarters, the
flushing Port-o-cans, and a very tight parking area to keep the
vehicles together and the dust down. The lines were in place before
daylight and manned with two "Official" timers, umbrella, binocs,
water, etc. The place was abuzz and it was still dark!
The organizers would wait until visibility was acceptable, usually
around 6:15 to 6:30 before opening the first round. Bang and the air
was full of gliders. Chasing was fairly easy during the first three
rounds with little drift. What wasn't easy was all the flapping
required and the U.S. team members did a terrific Job, saving several
maxes during the three days. This was my first experience at such
activity and I've got to say it really works! The down wind chase
vehicle, radio communication, and relay teams were very efficient
throughout the meet. Sadly only Jim makes the flyoff. After the F1A
rounds were through everyone packed up as best they could and drove
back to the hotel usually getting there around 2:30 or 3:00. Shower
and a light lunch. Some napped, I stayed awake and tinkered with my
ships till dinner, ate, then hit the sack. Quite a tiring routine, but
necessary under the circumstances.
This is where I'll tell you about the hotel and the great dining. With
the exception of breakfast which I only made once, the meals were very
good. There were two very large dining halls complete with white
linen, huge salad bars and wine on the table every meal. The food was
served buffet style, and there was plenty of it, we just couldn't
identify some of it and their attempts at giving them a English
descriptor left something to be desired. Quite often a what is it?,
would elicit a "meat" response or just a shrug. Unfortunately the food
didn't change much and after two weeks we were ready for anything
different. The swimming pool was apparently one of the largest in the
area and was full almost every day. The hotel had a spa, workout room,
masseuse and organized health activities. The rooms turned out to be
adequate and once our routine was established we tended to sleep quite
well!
Day 2- Jim's flyoff is first, he tows forever, gets off a good bunt
and solid glide. In my opinion Jim's gliders were among the best at
the W.C. and he should be very proud of his performance! F1B same
routine. Our guys really look good! Bob, John and Vladi make the
flyoff. Unfortunately Alex has rubber problems in the 6th round and
barely gets the flight off with 20 secs. to spare, but alas misses the
max. That night back in "camp" we've selected our horses, loaded our
transmitters and stabs, and go to bed.
Day 3 and I'm up to bat. F1B flyoff goes off first, but my
concentration does not allow me to watch. Flying on the last day was
probably a blessing as my nerves were not a problem. We all knew what
was going on. George and Blake had taken care of all the "stuff" and
the team was poised to support. The horn sounded and we were off! Ed
led us off with a great flight and Ron and I followed suit. Nice to
start clean! But disaster strikes in round two! Ed led off with
another nice max, then Ron got off a good launch only to get an over
run. That quickly put me in the hot seat and I went through my prep
routine, getting in my max with plenty of time for Ron to put in his
second attempt. Ron and George had been deciding strategy for his
second flight while I got my flight together, so I don't know exactly
what transpired during that period, but unfortunately Ron's second
flight of the round was a right launch with a low spiraling dive into
the "official" Bedoin tent near headquarters - no one hurt, but the
ship was destroyed and Ron was given another over run! That zero
crippled our team effort, but Ron quickly got his act back together
knowing that he had to finish out strong for us to place high and he
did a great job! We all maxed in round three. Round four brought good
and bad luck. Ron dropped and I don't remember exactly what happened.
I fortunately had an over run, in some really bad air. Unfortunately
as the ship was gliding in at about fifty feet, it struck a tow line
and dove straight for the ground. I was forced to go to my backup, but
with little concern since it was my Palm Bay ship and a true
"Veteran"; max, no problem. The rest of the rounds were fairly
routine, all maxes and seemed very short. I had two other significant
rounds that need mention. The first one (i don't recall which round ,
maybe three) the whole U.S. contingent waved, flapped, and generated
enough air to stretch my "close" flight into a DT at 220 sec. Thanks
guys! The other was the 6th round where I launched on the back side of
a huge dust devil, got sucked into the darn thing, went higher that
I've ever gone, lost sight of the ship, never saw it DT, but somehow
managed to pick it up in the binocs just before it hit the ground, not
that far away. Ed and I go to the flyoffs! And Ron put in a heroic
effort after such early bad luck - thanks pal!
That night we load the two long ships (105 and 107). Julie and I have
our routine down so well by now that there are no nerves and sleep is
easy, its only getting up that's tough. Everything goes smoothly,
everyone gets to the field, we prep in the dark. No time for a test
flight and barely enough to test run the engines and timers because of
a junior F1A flyoff on the line. Everything goes well and I go with
the 107 about 3 minutes into the window. Got it a little on its back
and it probably cost me 1 to 1 « minutes - alas. I chased the model
myself so I could enjoy the flight. Didn't see Ed go off, but
understand he had a great launch! I was very satisfied with the way
everything went and with the 5th (of course 1st would have been great).
Congratulations Ed!
After we finished the flyoff, it was back to the hotel, clean-up,
catch the tour bus for Jerusalem, then return for the closing
ceremony. We had one more day of touring and then it was off to
Germany for another adventure. The organizers of the Israeli World
Champs did an absolutely great job and should be commended for their
efforts. They did a fantastic job from the opening ceremony, the
Negev, the World Champs themselves, to the closing ceremonies, and all
of the peripheral "stuff" they arranged. Bravo!! and To Dah!!!
I'll finish with two final thank you's. The first to all of you - the
freeflighters who were responsible for me being ready to fly with the
big boys - you know who you are. But most importantly to Julie,
without who's love and support I wouldn't be doing this at all - and
especially for those straight launch vectors!
Next Installment: Germany is GREEN!
RE: Remote DT - how to
=======================
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> Also, along those lines,
> how about some technical info on simple circuit design for electronic
> timers. Maybe a block digram, and some readily available chip sets for
> those of us that "do our own thing". The sooner we make technical
> information available to everyone, the sooner we see development and
> improvement on any advancement.
>
You can make a single function timer from a clock crystal, divider chain
(4060?) and two cascaded 74193 decimal counters plus a little digital glue.
Use a solenoid or a tiny electric motor as the d/t release. That's
essentially what the Koster F1A timer from 1982/3 consists of.
Otherwise, take a look at the STAMP from Parallax Inc.
http://www.parallaxinc.com
and think about the possibilities. This is about the best start point for a
microcontroller - based timer unless you want to start designing and making
PCBs.
HTH
Martin
[Rex what is key to Ken's approach is the use of a PIC Microcontroller
that holds the individual user's PIN number - and encodes it and
then transmits or receives it. To make something as small as Ken is
the Stamp is really a little too big. You could use it
if you made a combined timer/RDT unit. See Klaus Salzer's
article above. basically with the RDT the best choise is to go with
some form of electronic timer - beacuse the heaviest part of the
electronic timer is the means of converting the electrical impulse
to mechanical energy and the battery to do it. So seeing you have to have
this for the RDT you may as well have a electronic timer because
you are a large way there. See Ken Bauer's writing below.. ]
RCDT - against
===============
===============
Right on Chuck
==============
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Chuck Markos,
I could not have said it better. As a matter of fact no one can say it better
or truer.Bravo Chuck.
Arik Donde
RC DT
=====
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Just to add some balance to this debate, Ken Bauer seems to be talking up a
point of view and presenting it as virtual facts, just comment on few of his
points.
1) is RC legal for FAI free Flight ?
I find it strange that some people should need to ask for claification on
whether it is legal to use R/C in Free flight. Surely if you fly the event
(or are a CD !!) you know what the rules are, to do this of course you have
a rule book.
For FAI free flight rule 1.3.1 is quite clear that R/C is definitely not
allowed, (except F1C).
If people have been using it then the contest director must disqualify them,
or if someone sees it happen then they should lodge a protest and ask for
the rules to be enforced.
2) People are suddendly shouting that this a wounderfull thing that we
should have, because it will be so nice.
But wait, R/C has been legal in F1C for perhaps10 years now, and the large
majority of fliers have just ignored it.
They have had the opportunity under the rules, and the available hardware,
to DT early from a high flight and still max, to overfly lakes or crops, or
to save from crashing a model that goes off pattern in the engine run. But
few have bothered to take up the opportunity.
That is the people who fly.
Perhaps the present debate is driven by those people who do more E mailing
than flying, I donot know, but the fact is it has been proven over some time
that the majority do not want it.
3) not everyone is in favour of RC in Free Flight as Ken Bauer would have us
believe.
I for one say we do not need it, (and it should be removed from F1C).
I fly Free Flight, and I also fly R/C and C/Line, and I appreciate what each
field of model flying has to offer, and one of the attractive things about
FF is that it is FREE.
When you let that model go it is on its own, you cannot change the timer
settings, or the trim, or how you threw it. That makes FF harder than other
types of model flying, and not everyone is good enough to do it, but that is
part of the challenge, and the pleasure.
If we put RC in a FF model then it is no longer Free Flight, simple as that.
This last argument is more subjective and emotional, but for me that is a
very important part of what free flight is, and why I do it.
And to Rich Wegener I say hang in there, I appreciate that is tough flying
against those awesome store-bought models, but it is fun trying to beat them
(it does happen), and you can also fly P30 if you want be a bit less
serious, (flying is fun, and if it isn't you probably need to adjust your
attitude rather than the trim).
thermals
David Ackery
New Zealand
RCDT
====
Dear Scat readers,
I have been following the RCDT discussion with great interest. I noticed
how much everybody is rectifying his own needs and pleasures with great
passion. I like using electronics in my models still I think RCDT is a
step to far.
Were are we going to draw the line? Already people are flying more RC
functions than just a DT in order to make trimming easier, or the guide
the model back after it's so cold free flight! For sure these features
will be the next subject of discussion when we accept RCDT. The only
clear line is to say no to every form of RC-activity.
Changing rules in order to make the sport easier is the wrong way
around! When retrieving a model is to much effort or flying a free
flight in a huge thermal is to much risk there is a very simple
solution: START FLYING RC-MODELS!!!!
Greatings,
Maarten van dijk,
vDijk Pultrusion Products
Rozenstraat 78,
NL-5014 AL Tilburg
Tel.(+31)(0)(13)5444712,
Fax (+31)(0)(13)5110278
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http://welcome.to/dpp
Just a box
==========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger, Got nothing but a border.
LEE
[ Lee the Image is very big
your computer is very slow
start it displaying - go test a motor or carve a prop
.. whoops or whatever you glider guys do.
maybe it will appear then]
RCDT for
========
========
More....
=========
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Sorry Chuck, but I did not say "everyone is in favor of it". What I said was "
Everyone I have heard from thinks radio DT is a great
idea", meaning that those who had contacted me were in favor of it.
That was probably a bad choice of words. I should have simply
said, "many are in favor of it". I'm not so arrogant as to think
everyone agrees with me.
I don't believe RDT will make any models obsolete. Just look at F1C -
most still don't even use it. Tom Koster does not win every
contest. A few will use it and enjoy it. The rest will keep doing
what they're doing.
What I am actually most excited about is a very simple one function
DT timer with RDT built in. It is possible to build such a
device which would weigh less than 10 grams including the battery
and everything. The timer would do only one thing: move a servo
arm once for the DT function after a preset time of say 5 minutes,
or sooner if the RDT transmitter button is pressed. No
programming, computer, or anything else... It would be as easy to
install in an airplane as any mechanical timer or RC system that
those other guys use. This could be used even in small rubber
models. (don't ask me about this yet, I don't have it, but I hope to
do it someday)
I've had lots of fun on long challenging chases too. But if you don't
find the airplane, the fun is gone. However, the fun that
I'm talking about is the ability to fly on smaller fields. More
flying=more fun. For me personally, I've been able to fly about 10
times more than I otherwise could have during the last month because
of this device. With all the talk of flying field problems,
I'm surprised that more people don't discuss this as a way to promote
free flight.
At one time in my younger days when I had nothing to do but go to
school and build models, I flew F1D indoor models in the Santa Ana
blimp hangers. They have a very interesting rule allowing you to
steer the mod el with the string of a balloon to prevent it from
crashing into the hanger or getting in trouble. This is a clear "physical
conn ection" for a moment in time, but the event is still
free flight. I believe that RDT is simply doing the same thing for
outdoor fre e flight models. You get one "steer" per flight with
the push of a button to try and keep your model on a small field, rather
than a string "steer" to keep an indoor model in the middle
of the hanger. I don't think anyone would object if I used a
shotgun to shoot my model out of the sky, so what's wrong with using a
radio instead?
Note to Rex Hinson - see the 1997 NFFS symposium. I published a
drawing of a simple DT only timer using radio shack parts. RDT
could be added later.
One last note - some friends over the weekend mentioned to me that
safety issue s could be the best reason for RDT. A few years ago
a model landed on power lines and started a fire. Besides a destroyed
model, I understand a lawsuit was involved that cost lots of
money. It is possible to prevent such things.....
Ken Bauer
Airtek Engineering
909-393-9889
Fax: 603-697-1065
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Viewing Attachments.
====================
opening mim's
=============
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[Peter I'm not an AOL user, I assume that mim means the MIME format. This
the way that attachments are encoded for transmission over the internet.
Recently I have sent xls, jpg and gif files - did you have this
problem with all of these ?
I would assume that either you have to configure your AOL browser to
know about Mime or about the kind of files
you might get down loaded i.e. gif, jpg or xls from SEN ?
or just download the file and rename it ?
Can any body comment on this ? maybe Ernesto below ?
Sure, here I go:
When you download an attachment using AOL sometimes it is converted to
a mim extension file by default (depending on where it came from),
downloading and renaming is not the way to go.
You need to have Unzip 6.3 or newer. After downloadinng the file go to the
windows explorer where you need to select the file: downloaded.mim, drag and
drop it onto the Winzip icon on your desktop screen, then Winzip will open
and then you select the folder where winzip should "scatter" the files
contained in that carbonmites.mim folder.
Hope it helps, I will send directly to Peter what he needs to install.
Thermals & reliable dethermilizers !! RC or anytype ;-)
Ernesto
attachments
===========
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Hi Roger,
I do not have problems with attachments ... maybe because I teach PC
handling?
However, I would like two improvements:
1) State (or have the author state) exactly, which version of the program he
used (excel 97 for example will not even recognize excel95, etc)
2) Leave (or put) the attachments on the SCAT website, and just include the
info in your regular mail. This will make the mail download much faster.
Only those really interested will need to spend time online.
Thanks for your work
Klaus W. Salzer
Viewing Attachments.
===================
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> I am using Microsoft Outlook Express. It is probably something That I
Sounds like you have to configure LookOut to handle additional file types
just as you do with a Web browser. If you don't want to do that you should
be able to save the attachment to a file on disk (Save As..) and then double
click on it from Explorer.
If you don't have Excel, there are free file viewers for all Office file
formats available from the MS web site.
HTH
Martin
RCDT on the fence
===================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Roger,
I have been reading with great interest the Radio Activated DT discussion.
There have been good points made by individuals both for and against the use
of such systems. My gut sense tells me that in competition, RADT changes
the underlying nature of free flight. However minimally it does so, it
allows a level of control from the pilot once the model leaves their hand.
The flight is no longer entirely FREE.
I would however, like to see these systems developed for non-competitive
flying. If properly designed, RADT systems could be a detachable add-on for
testing and sport flying but could be easily and conspicuously removed for
competition. Modelers would gain a competitive edge using the system
because they could more easily test and practice with their models. That is
a benefit of RADT that I think few would argue with.
Flying our larger FAI machines at local sites might also attract public
attention. I recently went to a local R/C field and met two modelers (40 -
50 years of age) who had never seen a free flight model bigger than a delta
dart, much less seen one fly. With RADT on my wakefield I could practice at
their field. I wonder if seeing a wakefield fly might entice them to try a
P-30? New recruits to our sport is another benefit of RADT that I think few
would argue with.
I realize that my comments are contradictory, however, my interest is solely
in preserving and promoting the sport of free flight. Even if Aram's
proposal is defeated, I hope that Ken and others continue to develop such
systems.
Remember the best way to support or defeat RADT is to vote on the proposal
which is on the ballot sent you by the AMA this week.
Ross Jahnke
Stonehenge '99
===============
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Roger,
> [Martin, I was also suprised to see it a 5 round contest. In a country
The format was adopted by Gerry Le Vey, the Stonehenge organiser, after
discussion with several sportsmen from different countries following on from
the fog problems last year. At the end of September daylight is getting
short and we frequently get morning mist; the combination can make it very
difficult to run 7 flights and flyoffs before darkness starts to cause
timekeeping problems, so the 5 flight combination was tried. I believe that
next year Gerry is angling for an earlier date in September and a consequent
return to the 7 flight format.
Martin
5 Gentlemenaly rounds with time for tea [or another brew]
=========================================================
Author : This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
In a message dated 5/10/99 3:36:27 am, you wrote:
<<[Martin, I was also suprised to see it a 5 round contest. In a country
where you [or may be they ] are stalwarts for the purity of the event
how can you let it degenerate in to only a 5 round afternoon tea party ?
:-)]
>>
Degenerate NO! Seven is not needed five to sort the duffers (I dropped 7
seconds) is sufficient. The use of five allows the longer rounds to be used
without the rush and hassle that often results in an unsatisfactory result.
Mike Woodhouse
...................
Roger Morrell
